p.1 #1 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
So with all this creative live talk about shooting 8 million photos per wedding it got me thinking...
Is the end product really all that matters? Discuss
Seems easy enough to answer. We are hired to take amazing photos of everything throughout the day. The client doesn't care how we do it or how many pictures we take as long as we give them their fairy tale vision.
End of story right?
As artist we are always going to have some personal attachment to the work we do and we are also going to have a certain way we feel comfortable working.
Is waiting for the perfect moment and taking one photo make the photographer "better" than someone else who shoots 100 photos of a scene and then picks 1 or 2 that are the perfect shot?
When I first saw the CL post I was like "holy crap that is way to many photos!". I commented somewhere else that even a blind squirrel finds a nut sometimes.
Personally I have always been somewhat of a purist. My favorite photographers shoot film and are forced to wait for the moment because overshooting is not an option. This is something I have been working very hard at lately. Slow down, wait, anticipate, capture the moment with one photo.
I was initially against the whole overshooting (thats just what I am calling it, don't mean to offend anyone) mindset. As time went on and I processed things I began to realize that even though I am on the "decisive moment team" it truly doesn't matter how it gets done.
This is a business in the end and we have to play the game the best we can. I personally wouldn't work the way Tyler works but he is successful and that is fantastic if it works for him. Nothing wrong with that.
I am finding that more and more things in photography are taking our eye off the end product which is just to provide the best photos we can for our clients. I am jaded by the industry a lot and am often guilty of taking sides (on matters like this) when in the end it really doesn't seem to matter.
p.1 #2 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Hey Doug,
Yeah, I agree with you about the mindset of "it doesn't matter how it gets done" but at the same time realizing that I will never shoot that way. If I wanted to capture that much it would probably be easier to take video and go that direction. In this past year I've kind of been not against photography exactly but I've been wondering why do we need to capture everything? I've been seeing so many iphone, ipads, video camera and dSLR's held by guests let alone the media teams. I almost don't want to shoot weddings that are dominated by the circus of it all. Maybe a bit of a tangent but yeah, I agree with all of your points, on either side of the topic
p.1 #3 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I tend to overshoot a little. Sometimes I get caught up in the whole "this is only happening once, don't fuck it up" mentality so I'd rather have a few too many photos than not enough. I also sometimes get ideas for shots that seem really amazing in my head, then when I get back home and view the pics on my 27" Mac I think "WTF was I thinking?"
I got a lot of slack in a recent thread featuring a wedding I shot. Some were saying I posted too many photos and I'd have a stronger set if I narrowed it down. My general response to that is "meh."
I like to feature moments, and a good moment deserves good photos...no matter how many photos that is. I shoot for my clients and potential brides, not other photographers who like to critique others' work. "You have WAY too many photos on your blog" said no potential client...ever.
It's a two way street. You can take 10k shots a wedding and only post 8 on your blog or take 2k shots a wedding and post 72.
p.1 #4 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I think it matters greatly because it devalues the skill of the photographer.
The photographer is no longer making a photo – they are just editors and cull from thousands and thousands of photos that their cameras motion drive though.
The camera plays a bigger role than the photographer’s skill when the photographer has to overshoot to get the shot.
This in turn will drive pricing even lower because it will no longer be about the photographer anymore but how many fps and how large the buffer on the camera can is.
p.1 #5 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I don't agree with you Littleguy.
There's a huge difference in that you can have 10000 photos that are shite with no vision and then 10000 photos with vision, creativity and execution. There's no way they are all decisive moments and are likely many many sequential, rapid burst sets
p.1 #6 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
That's coming from a guy that only shoots around 1400-1600 per 10-12 hour wedding so I'm not trying to defend the overshooting exactly but there is a difference.
p.1 #7 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Littleguy wrote:
I think it matters greatly because it devalues the skill of the photographer.
The photographer is no longer making a photo – they are just editors and cull from thousands and thousands of photos that their cameras motion drive though.
The camera plays a bigger role than the photographer’s skill when the photographer has to overshoot to get the shot.
This in turn will drive pricing even lower because it will no longer be about the photographer anymore but how many fps and how large the buffer on the camera can is.
That's crap. It's like me going into a famous chef's restaurant and saying "Wow....great meal, you must have a great oven."
It stopped being about the photographer when technology made it easy for everyone to get a camera that could take decent photos and those people started a facebook page called "Their Name Photography."
Prices won't go down because of overshooting. Even if you find a $5 bill on the sidewalk, it's still worth $5 even though you got it for free. It's called inherent or intrinsic value. Photography has a value. Sure it may differ market to market and skill set to skill set....but people have been overshooting weddings for YEARS.
p.1 #8 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Saying that the skill of the photographer is being taken away because one shoots a lot of frames is really discounting all other skills (interpersonal, composition, light, etc). The only skill that is really being put by the wayside is 'timing'.
The photographer still has to 'be there' no matter how many frames he takes.
p.1 #9 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
If an unskilled photographer goes around and shoots 14,000 frames a wedding it is still going to be shit. But if a skilled photographer goes around and takes 14,000 frames.......more awesome shots?
FYI: I'm shooting around 2000 to 2500 frames a wedding and feel like that is a lot sometimes.
p.1 #10 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
hardlyboring wrote:
So with all this creative live talk about shooting 8 million photos per wedding it got me thinking...
Is the end product really all that matters? Discuss
Seems easy enough to answer. We are hired to take amazing photos of everything throughout the day. The client doesn't care how we do it or how many pictures we take as long as we give them their fairy tale vision.
End of story right?
I think that in many cases the client does care how you do it. The experience of being photographed is oftentimes more important than the resulting photos.
My design professor was pretty amazing. Yet he would always tell us students that we could create just as good of a design as he could, it was just going to take us more tries and drafts. When I see someone shooting so much and creating the final product in the editing room I tend to think of that as a more amateur approach. Obviously, it can work, and in true Gretzky fashion you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. In general, overshooting can display a lack of a deliberate intention - its like you're shooting to see what happens instead of knowing what you want to create and making that happen. That isn't to say you can't shoot in a documentary fashion and know what you want to create and be intentional, which I think is what a lot of people assume. IF you understand the criteria that goes into a good image, and the criteria for when an image fits your brand, you can apply that criteria in camera instead of in Photomechanic.
I know this isn't the point of the question, but I've shot with several people who have bought into the "Foundation" approach. Obviously this doesn't characterize everyone in that boat, but the overall impression that I got looking at everything that was shot (not just the edits) was that there is an enormous amount of slop (creatively and technically) and lack of intention overall. When there is a "great" shot it looks like a mistake. I guess I can understand the frantic shooting approach but I have to believe that there is a smarter, more intentional way to work. Obviously, anything can work or be sold though.
p.1 #11 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I could shoot 20k photos a wedding and not end up with a single shot as good as Ben Chrissman or Lanny Mann
I think the end product is all that matters, but the experience IMO is part of the end product. If your shutter is annoying, those extra clicks could be an annoyance along with the extra time you stay in position.
I am actually trying to overshoot each moment. I used to snap 1-2 shots max per thing I saw and based on the prompting of a local photographer I was shooting for I started shooting 3+. Most of the time I only need one, but sometimes it really helps me develop moments and ensure that I actually got something usable. This is still way different than just spraying with the shutter but brought me up from ~1200 to ~2000 photos a wedding as a second.
p.1 #12 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
TRReichman wrote:
I think that in many cases the client does care how you do it. The experience of being photographed is oftentimes more important than the resulting photos.
My design professor was pretty amazing. Yet he would always tell us students that we could create just as good of a design as he could, it was just going to take us more tries and drafts. When I see someone shooting so much and creating the final product in the editing room I tend to think of that as a more amateur approach. Obviously, it can work, and in true Gretzky fashion you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. In general, overshooting can display a lack of a deliberate intention - its like you're shooting to see what happens instead of knowing what you want to create and making that happen. That isn't to say you can't shoot in a documentary fashion and know what you want to create and be intentional, which I think is what a lot of people assume. IF you understand the criteria that goes into a good image, and the criteria for when an image fits your brand, you can apply that criteria in camera instead of in Photomechanic.
I know this isn't the point of the question, but I've shot with several people who have bought into the "Foundation" approach. Obviously this doesn't characterize everyone in that boat, but the overall impression that I got looking at everything that was shot (not just the edits) was that there is an enormous amount of slop (creatively and technically) and lack of intention overall. When there is a "great" shot it looks like a mistake. I guess I can understand the frantic shooting approach but I have to believe that there is a smarter, more intentional way to work. Obviously, anything can work or be sold though.
p.1 #13 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I overshoot two things. Portraiture, and family portraiture. That's it. People blink, move, shift, laugh, etc. I want to have those moments if I want them, and if I don't want them, I want the shot before they sneezed.
Otherwise, I look for moments. And that allows me to be able to cull my weddings down relatively quickly. And saves tons of time in post. And to date, I don't feel like I'm missing anything by shooting this way.
I average about 1400-2000 images per wedding, and expect around 1000 from my second.
p.1 #14 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I think there is a middle ground.
Shooting a lot of images does not necessarily = overshooting. To me, overshooting implies a thoughtless, emotionless, overdone approach.
Shooting a lot of images can still be done with attention to to timing and composition.
I think the decisive moment is *somewhat* of a myth. Even the greats "worked the scene" only to pick out one or two images. See the contact sheets for Frank's "The Americans," for example.
p.1 #15 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
TRReichman wrote:
I think that in many cases the client does care how you do it. The experience of being photographed is oftentimes more important than the resulting photos.
This is so true and if the experience is wonderful enough they (the client) will love even mediocre shots.
p.1 #16 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I think if you're trying to create "art" or doing a personal project where there is no liability if you miss something, or you have the luxury of having no pressure to consistently maintain a certain level of product, then the process becomes more integrated into the value of what is being produced.
At the end of the day, when I think about wedding photography, I'm offering a service and there's a certain expectation on the client side that I'll come away with some great photography. If that (for me) requires overshooting, I'm fine with it. If that makes it a more amateurish approach, I guess I'm fine with that too, as long as I get the shot and my clients continue to be happy. And it's about having NO idea what people are going to do at any given moment. Like at the recessional, I shoot a lot for 2 reasons, the b&g often spin their heads around to look at their guests and each other really quickly, while moving at me. Sometimes they have great expressions, sometimes they look bored, but at the end of the day I have no idea what they're going to do. Although I don't rapid-fire 8fps I do shoot quite a lot during this time. Just one example...
When I go shoot my own personal stuff, I definitely don't shoot nearly as much, but it doesn't matter if I don't get the shot either.
p.1 #17 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I would agree with benee ...
Overshooting implies a thoughtless, emotionless shooting approach in capturing a wedding.
I can see overshooting formals and portrait type shots with the family/wedding party/B&G to reduce blinkies and poor expressions.
I can see shooting a few extra frames in specific moments involving the B&G or the immediate family.
I shoot: all day wedding - 1200-1500 ... depending on the type of wedding. +more for Indian wedding.
I think some of it, for me, has to do with the emotional excitement of the wedding day.
Meaning, if the family is into the wedding and the wedding party is into the day, I will not have to shoot multi-frame exposure to capture interesting moments.
If the wedding does not have this kind of energy, increasing the amount of exposures per moment will help ensure I have something of interest.
p.1 #18 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
Ziffl3 wrote:
I would agree with benee ...
Overshooting implies a thoughtless, emotionless shooting approach in capturing a wedding.
implications != truth
Also "moments" are not necessarily a split second. A moment can happen over the course of 5 or 10 seconds, it's about getting the moment at the peak. If you can predict when the peak of any given moment has happened or will happen, then you must have a sixth sense. If you only take a couple of frames when you THINK the a moment has reached its maximum potential, but it continues on and you stop shooting, you may have missed the peak. Maybe others are okay with just "capturing the moment" but I want to capture the peak of the moment. Good enough is not good enough for me.
p.1 #19 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
I overshoot, especially during the getting ready portion.
I'm at around 4k per wedding (~12 hours) now. Deliverables are around 700 images.
For the most part, I only see the upsides of overshooting. Less focus issues, no cloning of eyes in PS, more deliverables, greater likelihood of nailing that perfect look...
p.1 #20 · Overshooting vs decisive moment /// Is the end product all that matters?
With regard to the decisive moment, doesn't shooting at maximum FPS just make you more aware of the moment because you have adjacent near-moments to compare to instead of just your memory?
You guys are listing the number of images shot per wedding, but how many images are you delivering of those? (or how many keepers are there if your pricing structure determines the number of images you deliver.)
