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Archive 2013 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...

  
 
dafreedm
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


Hi folks,

I'm trying to decide between a couple of enthusiast (ie, large-sensor)
ultra-compact cameras, and would appreciate guidance from folks that
have used one or both of the ones I'm considering, especially those
who have similar preferences, use-case scenarios as mine. No strict
price limit, and all the ones I've looked at are similar enough in
price (sub $1200, let's say), that it's not an issue.

Some background --- I'm a long-time amateur DSLR shooter (formerly,
D-70, more recently D-7000 and D-3 with 85/f1.4, 105/f2D, etc) but the
primary (though, definitely not sole) user of the camera will be my
wife. She's very much a novice at this, and not particularly
interested in increasing her photography / camera knowledge or
skill-set; she currently uses, and loves, her Canon SD870is. We're
looking to upgrade to get better overall image-quality, faster
operation, and HD video. So, the camera should have straight-forward
usability for her (even if she does not obtain optimal IQ output, by
simply using it as a P&S), but I'll likely often borrow it (when I
don't feel like carrying my heavier gear).

Primary usage scenario (her only scenario) is to take pictures and
videos of our children --- mainly, daily activity and portraits, but
not really sports. Environmental conditions are about evenly split
between outdoor (assume sunny, say EV 12-15) and indoor (say, EV 5-7,
but usually not low-light).

An absolute requirement is:

Pocketability (compact-size)

(which understandably greatly restricts options, of course). For sake
of comparison, all M4/3's are definitely too large to meet this
criteria; to give some point of comparison, even the Fuji X100s is too
big (at 127x74x54cm). So, I'm looking for something that's only a bit
larger than the SD870is she has (93x59x26cm). This rules out all
cameras with OVF/EVF, but I'm okay with that.

Top priorities (in explicit order of importance) within this class
of compact cameras is:

(1) Image quality
(2) Quality and speed of autofocus
(3) Video capabilities (see below)
(4) Intuitiveness of user-interface and handling
(5) Depth of buffer when shooting RAW+JPG

Things I explicitly do *NOT* care about (among others, likely):

(1) Viewfinder or hot-shoe capability
(2) Wifi / NFC capability
(3) Using flash as wireless commander

The video capabilities are important (ranked #3, as above), since my
wife captures so many clips of our children on video; however, she's
not sophisticated enough to do fancy controls during shooting (pulling
focus, zooming [if camera has zoom], etc.), so let's limit the
comparison of video capabilities to quality of video, with controls
constant across length of clip.

A chief issue not outlined above is our potential requirement for zoom
or, instead, our appreciation for just a good fixed lens. Personally,
I think I'm fine with just a prime (and shoot mainly that on my
DSLRs). I suspect my wife would likely prefer the flexibility of a
zoom. However, I've recently examined (programmatically) 1000s of
photos she took with her SD870is over the past few years, constructed
a histogram of the various focal-length settings of them, and found
that she took ~50% of them at 28mm (FX-equiv), and only 10% at each
of five or so other settings all the way up to the max of 105mm
(FX-equiv) present on the SD870. So, this leads me to believe (and to
be able to convince her) that a fixed-length lens would be a viable
option for her demonstrated past shooting preferences.

The list of possible cameras is actually pretty small (given my
extreme demands of compactness and sensor-size/image-quality). In
fact, so far, my attention has focused strictly on the Ricoh GR, Nikon
Coolpix A, and Sony RX-100M2. The Fuji XF1 could potentially also be
included, but it's 2/3" sensor (and DxO of 49) is sufficiently far
from the other three to exclude it (in my opinion). So, let's set the
sensor-bar, then, at CX or above (DX). If there are any other models
I should be considering, please let me know... If not, would appreciate
help in deciding between above three.

Sources I've already consulted, so far, to understand the situation:

(1) Ming Thein's excellent reviews and comparisons:
(a) http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/08/06/the-sony-rx100-a-somewhat-comparative-review/
(b) http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/04/26/review-nikon-coolpix-a/
(c) http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/05/06/review-2013-ricoh-gr-digital-v/
(d) http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/05/07/battle-of-the-28mm-compacts-ricoh-gr-vs-nikon-coolpix-a/

Ming does not explicitly review the RX100M2, nor compare the
RX100 with the DX compacts, but I suspect he would favor either
of the DXs due to their improved IQ, and his expressed interest
in 28mm-prime shooting. As above, my situation is a bit more
nuanced, but not much --- with the exclusion of a better
understanding of how either of the DXs compare in
("constant-control") video against the RX100M2.

More interesting to me, the issues that Ming mentions with GR
color handling in its RAW files appear to possibly be related to
some issues with ACR, rather than to anything in the camera
itself. This would be quite comforting to learn (assuming that
they would then disappear in later revisions of said software
program).

(2) DP Review:
(a) http://www.dpreview.com/previews/sony-cybershot-dsc-rx100-m2/
(b) http://www.dpreview.com/previews/nikon-coolpix-a/
(c) http://www.dpreview.com/previews/ricoh-gr/

(3) Thom Hogan
(a) http://bythom.com/2013%20Nikon%20News.htm (under "The A Problem")
(b) http://www.gearophile.com/cameras/camera-reviews/nikon-coolpix-a-review.html

I think my first goal is to decide whether I want to trade additional
IQ (moving from CX to DX sensor) for the ability to zoom. In making
that decision, I would then either purchase, or exclude, the RX-100M2.
Right now, I'm leaning to better IQ, with the significant caveat that
I can also obtain better video from the DX cameras. (I know / suspect
that the RX100M2 is more adept at the *control* of the video, probably
allowing for pull focus, easy recomposition during video, etc. As I
mention above, let's put all those capabilities aside, since I know my
wife will never use them. Instead, let's just consider the IQ of the
video from the RX-100M2 against that of the A and GR. For example,
what is the impact of the video codec?)

Once that is decided, I'll either have chosen the RX-100M2, or have to
decide between the A and the GR. At that point, I think it's a much
closer decision... Thoughts?

Regardless, I very much appreciate any insights on above.

Thanks!



PS Some of my comparison notes, in abbreviated format:


Sony RX100M2 (102x58x38@281) CX / 28-100mm / f1.8+ / DxO 67 / -- / 20MP / 1080@60,50,25,24p / IS / RAW [ARF] / $750
Ricoh GR (117x61x35@245) DX / 28mm / f2.8 / DxO 78 / ND / 16MP / 1080@30,25,24p / -- / RAW [DNG] / $800
Nikon Coolpix A (111x64x40@299) DX / 28mm / f2.8 / DxO 80 / -- / 16MP / 1080@30,25,24p / -- / RAW [NEF] / $1100



Jul 30, 2013 at 08:41 AM
dafreedm
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


Above, on dimensions of X100s and SD870is, "cm" ---> "mm" (obviously).



Jul 30, 2013 at 08:44 AM
aleksanderpolo
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


If video is important, I think you should forget about GR, speaking from someone who has GR as avatar.


Jul 30, 2013 at 09:44 AM
DTOB
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


I got my wife the original RX100. Way more camera than she needs, but AF is suuper fast, the zoom is handy, and it fits in her purse with a small case. Personally, I never considered a fixed lens camera for her. It sounds as though your wife would also appreciate the zoom, as 50% of her shots were taken with one on her old camera. Sure you can crop a shot, but then you are sacraficing IQ that you deem to be important.

We have no kids, but friends and family are always impressed with the shots my wife takes, and say they wish they had a camera like hers. This is on full auto everything. When I use the camera, I find it has all the manual controls I need.

IMO, a DX camera is a want, not a need. And it is your want, not necessarily hers. If she is anything like my wife, and it sounds like she is (couldn't care less about the nuts and bolts of photography, no interest in learning), the sensor size is about as important to her as the brand of air filter in her car.



Jul 30, 2013 at 10:05 AM
millsart
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


X100 is going to have the better video and AF over the GR, though the GR does have a nice form factor and interface.

However, its an interface for a photo enthusiast who would use things like snap focus. The Sony on the other hand has more bells and whistles like sweep pano mode, which works well and appeals to the casual user more.

Also can't negate the value of the zoom in some situations

I haven't shot the Nikon A, but spec wise, I don't see much that makes it worth an extra $300 over the GR



Jul 30, 2013 at 10:52 AM
dafreedm
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


aleksanderpolo wrote:
If video is important, I think you should forget about GR, speaking from someone who has GR as avatar.


Can you expand upon that in detail, please? My wife definitely will not use a lot of the **features** of the RX100M2 video (I can guarantee that she will not change focus, nor change zoom during video).



Jul 30, 2013 at 11:31 AM
JonPB
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


You describe a very logical set of reasons and choices, however I can't help but question one of your specifications. Does your wife's camera need to be good enough for you to want to borrow? It sounds like she would be very happy with the Canon S110--happier than with the Ricoh GR, even, which you could buy for yourself while she uses the S110, without anybody compromising and while still being in the ~$1200 window. Or, you could forego the GR and spend the money on flowers, jewelry, and date nights, which would surely make my girlfriend happier than any camera equipment could.

Just my $0.02.

Cheers,
Jon



Jul 30, 2013 at 11:37 AM
dafreedm
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


DTOB wrote:
I got my wife the original RX100. Way more camera than she needs, but AF is suuper fast, the zoom is handy, and it fits in her purse with a small case. Personally, I never considered a fixed lens camera for her. It sounds as though your wife would also appreciate the zoom, as 50% of her shots were taken with one on her old camera. Sure you can crop a shot, but then you are sacraficing IQ that you deem to be important.


Agreed that zoom has some value to her, but I was surprised (personally, and she was too) by how large a fraction of her past shots were at 28mm (FX-equiv). So, it's less of a priority than I might have thought.

I'm also concerned that the RX100M2 will be less simple for her to use than the Ricoh GR, given the latter's prized intuitiveness in UI.

I know she's handled some other consumer P&S (besides SD870is) and felt that they were just very confusing to her.


DTOB wrote:
IMO, a DX camera is a want, not a need. And it is your want, not necessarily hers. If she is anything like my wife, and it sounds like she is (couldn't care less about the nuts and bolts of photography, no interest in learning), the sensor size is about as important to her as the brand of air filter in her car.


Agree in principle (and I appreciate the advice), but not sure if the analogy totally works. She definitely couldn't care about DX,CX, or <blah-blah>. However, she constantly is amazed with the picture quality I can obtain with my D3|D7000 and 85f1.4, and always stating how much she wants to be able to get similar "looks" from her compact camera (let's discard composition and lighting, since that's a difficult learned skill). In particular, she appreciates the bokeh of my 85f1.4. So, it still does come down to IQ, regardless of what is going on behind the scene to make it happen.

The question becomes harder as the RX100M2 has pretty good IQ (and definitely better than her SD870is), even though the Ricoh GR has better.

To normalize, DxO lists the GR at 78, the RX100M2 at 67, and the SD110 at 49 --- so her SD870is (which they don't list) is probably <40.

Two big remaining questions that I think will really help here is a better understanding of which camera is easier for her to use, and which has better video quality (not functionality, see above).

Thanks again to all above replies for help!






Jul 30, 2013 at 11:40 AM
DTOB
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


I knew my analogy stunk as I typed it, but hey, I'm no writer. That's my wife's craft.

Yeah, my wife loves the photos I take too. But none of the cameras we are talking about are going to get her the look of a 85/1.4 Of course we both know this. Hey, at least it keeps us in a job.

As far as usability goes, the RX100 just shoots. She never goes into the UI. I set it all up for her. Turn it on, fire away, get great photos. I showed my wife some shots of the MK2, and she said there is no way she would want one. Would never use the hotshoe, would never tilt the screen. She thinks it doesn't look as sleek, and I'm inclined to agree with her. For her, the original RX100 will be her camera for the next 5-6 if it lives that long. That's how long she had her old canon-something-or-other with it's 7mp.



Jul 30, 2013 at 11:50 AM
aleksanderpolo
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


I think it's the codec used for Ricoh's video, it's pretty bad with lots of artifacts, not smooth at all. My 4 years old GF1 takes much better video than GR or GXR.

A's video mode should be better, but it is also buried in the menu with no quick direct access to it. So if video is at all important, I think the RX100 would be a better choice.

By the way, x100 is almost twice the size and weight of RX100/GR if you are considering it. See this size comparison:

http://j.mp/1c8Q6nn


dafreedm wrote:
Can you expand upon that in detail, please? My wife definitely will not use a lot of the **features** of the RX100M2 video (I can guarantee that she will not change focus, nor change zoom during video).




Jul 30, 2013 at 12:53 PM
dafreedm
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


aleksanderpolo wrote:
I think it's the codec used for Ricoh's video, it's pretty bad with lots of artifacts, not smooth at all. My 4 years old GF1 takes much better video than GR or GXR.,


Thanks. This is exactly what I want to learn more about... By any chance, do you have any links to reviews that focus on this, or other examples where I could learn more? (see above for reviews I've already considered).

Additionally, can you confirm that you're shooting video at the GR's top resolution (1080/30p)?

Strange re codec, as both are supposedly H.264 for video (the RX100 in an MTS container with dolby digital sound, and the GR in a MOV container with linear PCM sound) --- perhaps there are subtleties on the code *IMPLEMENTATION* to account for the difference? (Now, we're beyond my knowledge level, though.)

A's video mode should be better, but it is also buried in the menu with no quick direct access to it. So if video is at all important, I think the RX100 would be a better choice.

Yeah, the video-option-buried-in-menus is a huge turn-off for me about the Nikon A. More and more, it's a decision between the RX100M2 and the GR...

By the way, x100 is almost twice the size and weight of RX100/GR if you are considering it. See this size comparison:

No, I'm not considering the x100(s) at all, due to size. As mentioned in initial post "Fuji X100s is too big (at 127x74x54mm). "

Thanks for your continued input.



Jul 30, 2013 at 01:11 PM
aleksanderpolo
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Advice on large-sensor, ultra-compact camera...


I don't have any other sources, probably because most GR users are not using the video at all. Ya, even in the highest setting it is still pretty bad...

If you are setting the camera up for your wife to use in auto mode, I think the level of controls/customization of GR will be lost/not be fully appreciated by her.



Jul 30, 2013 at 01:23 PM





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