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Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.
  
 
buggz2k
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p.1 #1 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/23/Canon-patents-refinement-of-foveon-style-multi-layer-sensor

I say go for it.
The more, the better.
I LOVE my new FujiFilm X-E1 with the X-Trans sensor.
Yes, I know that X-Trans is nothing like Foveon.



May 23, 2013 at 08:35 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #2 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


Sony has a Foveon "like" sensor?


May 23, 2013 at 08:47 PM
buggz2k
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p.1 #3 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1162072/0?keyword=foveon#11081341

freaklikeme wrote:
Sony has a Foveon "like" sensor?




May 23, 2013 at 08:49 PM
philip_pj
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p.1 #4 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


Sony has more sensor patents than you could poke a stick at...they are world leaders and can be expected to have their research yield revolutionary technology that will become commonplace in the years to come. They could in particular be expected to keep a watching brief on all other sensor dev. The rumour site has very frequent information on this line of work.


May 23, 2013 at 09:18 PM
douglasf13
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p.1 #5 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


The problem is that, at least for raw shooters, the sensor is just one piece of the chain, and third party raw conversion takes a while to get going with new tech. In the case of my X100s, I wish Fuji would have just used Bayer, because all of the raw converters are trade offs in one way or another, and X-trans is my least favorite thing about the camera.


May 23, 2013 at 09:40 PM
Mescalamba
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p.1 #6 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


Yea but nobody except Sigma actually is making one. Patents are useless if they dont have impact on real world. And by that I dont mean patent wars which Apple likes.


May 23, 2013 at 10:49 PM
mawz
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p.1 #7 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


Mescalamba wrote:
Yea but nobody except Sigma actually is making one. Patents are useless if they dont have impact on real world. And by that I dont mean patent wars which Apple likes.


Not useless, they protect investments in R&D from future developments. If you patent it and it's not currently useful, it simply means that someone in the future has to compensate you if they develop something based on your work (assuming this occurs prior to patent expiry).

Nobody aside from Sigma is making one because they are currently significantly inferior to Bayer-pattern sensors in real-world use (the Foveon's have good resolution at the expense of pretty much everything else, and even then their advantage in resolution over an AA-less 24MP APS-C like the D7100 is marginal). But there's always a chance that someone will find an alternate solution to the problems with diffusion-based filtering and they need to protect the work that leads to that, so they patent now.



May 23, 2013 at 10:58 PM
theSuede
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p.1 #8 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


Same color defects as the normal Foveon, but very slightly increased QE in long wave (red). Not a very interesting patent, more of an exercise. It is actually almost 100% identical to all other "foveon" type patents, except for the inclusion of a red/near-IR trap.

Though, the patent is already covered by several others, including Sony, Aptina, Toshiba, Samsung - they all already HAVE some kind of implementation of the said patent already in production. The main part of the patent is "just" a manufacturing method for a known principle of depth diffusion limitation. Several deep IR sensors already use this type of resonant gating.

The only way layered sensors can move forward is by circumventing the very flawed base principle of Foveon (depth diffusion filtering). To my surprise, no-one has shown any further demos with silicon photodiode + nanodot cover two-layer solutions. Two years ago I saw some VERY promising work there, where a manufacturer implied that the only remaining problem was physical stability over time. They did/do not want an aging problem in a very expensive first product.



May 23, 2013 at 11:08 PM
millsart
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p.1 #9 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


douglasf13 wrote:
The problem is that, at least for raw shooters, the sensor is just one piece of the chain, and third party raw conversion takes a while to get going with new tech. In the case of my X100s, I wish Fuji would have just used Bayer, because all of the raw converters are trade offs in one way or another, and X-trans is my least favorite thing about the camera.



Feel your pain, but until you buy a Sigma Merrill and are forced to use SPP as your only option, you don't know how good you have it with some minor "watercolor" effects from the Xtrans processing



May 24, 2013 at 12:27 AM
douglasf13
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p.1 #10 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


millsart wrote:
Feel your pain, but until you buy a Sigma Merrill and are forced to use SPP as your only option, you don't know how good you have it with some minor "watercolor" effects from the Xtrans processing


I'm not sure that I even consider them minor. I see examples of it all the time, even just when looking at full screen view, and not 100%. I'm trying really hard not to care.



May 24, 2013 at 12:33 AM
 

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Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #11 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


millsart wrote:
Feel your pain, but until you buy a Sigma Merrill and are forced to use SPP as your only option, you don't know how good you have it with some minor "watercolor" effects from the Xtrans processing


SPP is not the only option for a raw processor. Iridient Developer will process Merrill files on the Mac.

http://www.iridientdigital.com/



May 24, 2013 at 12:33 AM
Mescalamba
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p.1 #12 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


And RPP for MAC. Dunno how its actually named tho..


May 24, 2013 at 03:26 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #13 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


Mescalamba wrote:
And RPP for MAC. Dunno how its actually named tho..


RPP - Raw Photo Processor does not support the Sigma DP Merrill's that I'm aware of, at least the current version here doesn't:

http://www.raw-photo-processor.com/RPP/Overview.html

It does not appear to have been updated since last November.



May 24, 2013 at 03:48 AM
Chrissearle
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p.1 #14 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


If ease of workflow is more important to you than file quality then stick with Bayer, if file quality is paramount then I haven't found anything better than Foveon. I'll not be swapping my X100 for the s from what I've seen of the files.


May 24, 2013 at 06:52 AM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #15 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


buggz2k wrote:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1162072/0?keyword=foveon#11081341



Interesting. Thanks for the link.



May 24, 2013 at 07:21 AM
philber
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p.1 #16 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


douglasf13 wrote:
I'm not sure that I even consider them minor. I see examples of it all the time, even just when looking at full screen view, and not 100%. I'm trying really hard not to care.


I have to agree. I hadn't paid a lot of attention to this, being a NEX shooter, but when I saw the effect on the Touit pics with the Fuji, I was amazed that it was so visible. Ouch!



May 24, 2013 at 08:20 AM
sculptormic
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p.1 #17 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


millsart wrote:
Feel your pain, but until you buy a Sigma Merrill and are forced to use SPP as your only option, you don't know how good you have it with some minor "watercolor" effects from the Xtrans processing


SPP is no problem at all for me because you only use it for minor tweaks, mainly color, and move on to ACR or Lightroom, all very straightforward. And you don't have to worry or spend time on sharpening.



May 24, 2013 at 08:38 AM
alba63
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p.1 #18 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


douglasf13 wrote:
In the case of my X100s, I wish Fuji would have just used Bayer, because all of the raw converters are trade offs in one way or another, and X-trans is my least favorite thing about the camera.


Same for my X-E1. It is a nice camera (albeit a bit unreactive) and has basically nice IQ, but I consider the "X-Trans" tech mainly a marketing gimmik. It sounds like something very clever, and unfortunately reviewers haven't stopped raving about the "X-trans" sensor and lack of AA filter, whereas a simple comparision to let's say a Nex-5N would show that the resolution gain of the files in the FUji is absolutely negligeable (if there is any at all), whereas the cons are quite important ones....

Bernie



May 24, 2013 at 11:44 AM
andyjaggy82
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p.1 #19 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


I continue to be absolutely blown away by the files coming out of my Merrill cameras. They literally make me smile every time I look at one at a 100% crop.

It isn't a perfect technology, but honestly I will sacrifice a lot of speed and convenience for the quality of those files.

I would love to see Canon pick of Fovean technology, because I just don't think Sigma has the resources to really drive the technology forward, and I really want to see continued development and improvement.



May 24, 2013 at 02:21 PM
veroman
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p.1 #20 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


andyjaggy82 wrote:
It isn't a perfect technology ....

That's putting it mildly.
- Steve



May 24, 2013 at 02:36 PM
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