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Mirror-less System Recommendations
  
 
hashaama
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p.1 #1 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


I might be opening a can of worms here but would like to get some recommendations for Mirror-less system. My background is I have owned film cameras including Nikon FE-2 and Rollei 35s, in digital world I have owned Nikon D80, D700 and Fuji X100. Loved D700 especially with 28mm and 85mm 1.8 lenses but my favourite has been X100 and Rollei from film days. I have sold almost all my lenses and cameras and now just have D80, 35mm, 18-105mm, 70-300mm VR.

While looking at new X100s I also started researching mirror-less system cameras and I think EOS M with 22mm will fit the bill (hopefully Canon will release an 80mm-100mm type lens. But then I look at NEX 6 (or even used NEX 7) and it sounds like a more complete camera but they donít seem to have the lenses I want in the reasonable price range (reasonable for me being in the same ball park as Canon 22mm).

The camera will be used for primarily for travel and landscape but should also be able to keep up with me 2 year old son running around for some candid snapshot type stuff. I will probably get rid of D80 and lenses if I can find right mirror-less system.

Will appreciate your thoughts on EOS M/NEX/M43/Fuji.

Thanks
Hash



Apr 25, 2013 at 08:08 AM
philber
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p.1 #2 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Simply put, Hash, the Canon M has been a non-event in the market. Late, not bringing anything new, and afflicted with apparently terrible AF (I haven't tried it personally). Canon seem intent on not shifting any DSLR sales towards mirrorless, so they intoduced a very small form factor DSLR and an underwhelming mirrorless. Nikon seems to follow pretty much the same policy.
To mirrorless now. M 4/3 has the best lens lineup. Very diverse, and with god to great choices in pretty much every field. Downside is the sensor. While they slowy get better, like eveybody else, their size is and will remain a limiting factor for IQ.
NEX has the best sensor and IQ, but lenses have been slow to show up. Today, though theure are some seriosu choices, like the Sigma twins at a totally ridiculous price is you can still find that deal, like the Sony 35 and 50. A pancake 20 is due out soon, etc... Sonby sensors are considered the best in the world at this time, and the 6 has gotten a very positive response. For the even more ambitious customers a 7N should be announced with a matter of days/weeks, as should two Zeiss primes (12 and 32mm)
In that sense, M 4/3 and NEX are opposites.
Fuji has a middle position. Very good lenses, though by far not as plentiful as the M 4/3, very good IQ, though possibly not the equal of Sony. Downside is that the Fuji sensor has some bizarre artifacts, especially if you use Adobe software (Photoshop, Lightroom).
Then of course, you can go with fixed lens cameras, which have been progressing as well: Fuji 100s, Sony RX 100 and RX 1, etc... It seems that a single fiwed prime works better than a prime of the same FL on an interchangeable-lens camera, so if a single one if enough for you, this might be the way to go...
Hope this helps



Apr 25, 2013 at 08:27 AM
hashaama
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p.1 #3 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Thanks Philber,

Very useful information there.

I was considering EOS M because they seem to have the lens I am after (35mm inequivalent) and there are some good deals available on it, I read somewhere that using touch screen works well for getting around the focusing issues. Having used X100 I am not averse to using workarounds to address limitations.

NEX 6 does sound very interesting but they don't seem to offer the lenses I want. M43 has the right lenses (17mm and 45mm 1.8) but I am not sure about the bodies, OM-D just looks odd to me, a purely personal thing.

Single focal length cameras get me the wide lens but then I would want a longish (80-90mm) lens for 25% of my photography.

There are no obvious winners here, have to compromise one thing or the other. Conventional wisdom would suggest just get the system with right lenses and that seems to be m43.....

Thanks
Hash



Apr 25, 2013 at 08:51 AM
carstenw
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p.1 #4 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


The E-PL5 has the same sensor as the E-M5, and can take an EVF. MFT has the best autofocus at the moment, although none of these systems can follow-focus like a DSLR.

If you can, you might want to play with an Olympus and a NEX in the store for a bit. Some hate the menus of the one, some hate the other... Personally I do not like the menu system of the NEX, and get along really well with the Olympus system, but that is just one data point.

The 100% crop look of the Fujis shouldn't discourage you from buying one of those; no one has yet chimed in about problems in downsized webversions or print, so it appears to be strictly a pixel peeping problem. These are early days, and the system is very well sorted, with great image quality. The AF seems to be the only area where it lacks a bit, and even that is much better than with the X100.



Apr 25, 2013 at 10:09 AM
Jman13
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p.1 #5 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


A lot of this will be personal preference, so it's worthwhile to try them out. For instance, I really don't like the NEX cameras. They just rub me the wrong way. They feel terrible in my hand (the grips are way too cramped up next to the lens for how I hold the camera), and it feels like operating a computer rather than a camera. Nothing wrong with computers...I love them and have built them for over a decade...but I don't want my cameras to feel that way. The NEX system also has pretty mediocre lens offerings. The size of the lineup is growing, but even their really good lenses would only be 'Ok' in some of the other mirrorless systems. Other people love them, and if you're shooting exclusively adapted manual focus lenses, it may be the best bet.

I think Micro 4/3 is definitely the most mature of the mirrorless systems. Bodies are responsive, with blazing fast autofocus (single shot) and image quality has drastically improved with the latest round of sensors, and are now on par with many APS-C cameras (e.g., most Canon APS-C DSLRs). The in-body stabilization of the E-M5 is phenomenal. The lens lineup is huge, and while there are a lot of consumer lenses in that lineup, the high end is also there, with many truly outstanding lenses from ultrawide to telephoto.

I quite enjoy shooting the Fuji system as well. The cameras have controls very well laid out, and it's enjoyable to shoot a camera that is simply built to be a camera. Quick, easy access to real dials that control all the important things, and easy access to needed features. It's really a joy to shoot with. The lenses are also outstanding, as they've catered to the high end shooter from the beginning. I'm using a 14/35/60 kit now, and they're all fantastic...I really love the way the Fuji lenses draw. That said, it has by far the slowest autofocus of the mirrorless options out there (save for maybe the EOS M), and is definitely more useful as a deliberate camera. I really like the image quality out of the X-E1's sensor. In very rare cases, yes, it can produce some odd artifacts with high frequency detail, but I don't find it happens all that much to be honest, and it only is visible at 100% on screen. Prints are gorgeous, files are very clean and have great tonal depth and dynamic range. I think the Fuji system has a lot of real promise.

So, those are my thoughts. I'd avoid EOS M altogether. Canon put it together as an afterthought, and there's nothing it does better than any of the other systems, aside from take EOS lenses natively....but if you're using huge SLR lenses, why are you going mirrorless? Overall, I think m4/3 is the best bet at the moment, and I personally prefer the Olympus OM-D E-M5 as my best overall mirrorless camera, though I shoot a lot with the X-E1 as well.



Apr 25, 2013 at 11:05 AM
CalW
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p.1 #6 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Hash, there is not much I can add to what Jordan says above, but I want to emphasize the advantage of the 5-way image stabilization of the OM-D E-M5. No other camera IBIS or lens IS can come close to this, and I find that I seldom use my tripods now. The OM-D E-M5 camera is also very customizable, and some patience with the manual and some time spent experimenting should achieve controls to suit most shooting styles. After buying two other m43 cameras and some of the fine lenses available, I saw the potential the m43 system offered. The OM-D E-M5 closed the deal for me - I now own two, have sold my Canon gear, and have no regrets whatever. Please understand that one reason this works for me is that I have no particular interest in sports-action photography - the m43 system's only significant fault at this point is that it really cannot do fast-action multi-shot focus tracking very well. I have a two-year-old granddaughter, and single-shot autofocus serves me well for keeping up with her. What a camera looks like is obviously a personal taste issue, but I suggest that you try to get past that and give the Olympus a try.


Apr 25, 2013 at 01:57 PM
serhan_
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p.1 #7 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


I still have my old Canon dlsrs, but last 3-4 years I am using nex and m43 systems. From what I read, avoid canon eos m.

I like the grips on the mirrorless cameras as they stabilize the cameras with one hand holding, esp with the longer lenses. I love the Sony grips and added grips to my Oly e-p3 and omd. I tried an e-pl5 also last week for couple days and used the bigger grip from e-p3. E-pl5 is a very good entry level camera and I was checking it since OMD+grip is not small anymore... Nex6 is a very good choice also esp with the built-in viewfinder. Sony finally started to make smaller lenses, but still doesn't have anything longer then 50mm. Nex-6 with 16-50 kit lens and 20mm/35mm makes one of the smallest systems on mirrorless cameras.

I recommend m43 due to af speeds with your running son M43 is a more mature system with their af speed and lenses as said above. I use m43 as my long lens system due to size of their tele lenses. Both sony and fuji don't have anything beyond 300-400mm and the tele lenses are bigger/longer then m43. Oly 75-300mm replaced my 70-300 and 100-400 lenses from Canon with a much smaller size. m43 makes a compact system for my tavels as well. From Cape Cod, e-p3 w/ 75-300:












Sony nex/Fuji have a little better dynamic range and better higher iso's compared to m43 but the difference is not be that much. Coming from full frame camera, dof is the only area lacking in mirrorless and speed booster adapter for nex/fuji compansates that if you use manual focusing. For manual focusing, the advantage of nex is focus peaking and fuji might have it with their next updated cameras. Panasonic gf6 has focus peaking now also.

As recommended you should find a place to check the cameras. It will take some time to get used to the menus. Still happens when I use one system long enough and use the other one.


Edited on Apr 25, 2013 at 02:54 PM · View previous versions



Apr 25, 2013 at 02:11 PM
Joe Garner
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p.1 #8 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Another thing worth remembering is that, unlike NEXes, m43's use standard hotshoe - I can pop a trigger off my Canon, put it into Olympus and keep shooting.


Apr 25, 2013 at 02:16 PM
bobbytan
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p.1 #9 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


It is not clear if you are intending to replace your DSLR. If you are, the MFT is probably your best bet as it is currently the most mature and complete "systems" camera. Super-quick AF, good EVF, IBIS which is huge IMO, the best lens line-up from SWA to medium tele ... and pretty decent long lenses in the 75-300 and 100-300 range with image stabilization. It is also the lightest and most compact MILC.

If you are looking for MILC as a secondary kit just for travel, hiking, etc. the Fuji and NEX options are good bets too.



Apr 25, 2013 at 02:46 PM
Peire
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p.1 #10 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


NEX5N/R and/or 7 with some fine alt lenses or Fuji X series with a few of native fujinons and some alts if you don't mind bigger (and better built quality) body.Canon M - we will have to wait for some better equipped body with at least tilt/shift LCD and remote release.What I liked about the M is it's EOS EF adapter which allows using Zeiss ZE series lenses.Micro 4/3 is too small a format for my taste.


Apr 25, 2013 at 02:52 PM
 

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aleksanderpolo
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p.1 #11 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


hashaama wrote:
The camera will be used for primarily for travel and landscape but should also be able to keep up with me 2 year old son running around for some candid snapshot type stuff.


It sounds like EM5 would be your best bet for these use. Mirrorless do not have fast tracking like DSLR, but for single AF the EM5 is the fastest of the bunch with most of m4/3's lenese. If you have any doubt about EOS-M, check out this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LO7rxitFLZg




Apr 25, 2013 at 02:57 PM
douglasf13
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p.1 #12 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Joe Garner wrote:
Another thing worth remembering is that, unlike NEXes, m43's use standard hotshoe - I can pop a trigger off my Canon, put it into Olympus and keep shooting.


Sony starting using a standard hotshoe in their NEX and Alpha cameras last year, so the Nex-6 has the standard hotshoe.



Apr 25, 2013 at 03:12 PM
ISO1600
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p.1 #13 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Sony has a newish 20mm f2.8 pancake for the NEX. I don't know if there are any field reports for that lens, but it would give you a 35mm equivalent on a bigger sensor than M4/3, with a nice EVF to boot.
The newer Sony cameras have a standard hot shoe.

I personally think the NEX-6 and the 20/2.8 would probably be quite a nice shooter.



Apr 25, 2013 at 03:19 PM
serhan_
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p.1 #14 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Last week ephotozine posted Sony 20mm, 24mm, 50mm & 10-18 reviews with sample photos using nex-5r:

Sony NEX E 20mm f/2.8 Pancake Lens Review

Carl Zeiss 24mm f/1.8 Sonnar E ZA T* Lens Review

Sony NEX 50mm f/1.8 OSS Lens Review

Sony SEL 10-18mm f/4 OSS Lens Review

ISO1600 wrote:
Sony has a newish 20mm f2.8 pancake for the NEX. I don't know if there are any field reports for that lens.




Apr 25, 2013 at 03:26 PM
buggz2k
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p.1 #15 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


My background is the Canon system, BTW.
I wanted a smaller system than my DSLR, to take with me everywhere.
I really wanted to get the Sony NEX 7.
But, all the reviews put me off, UI horrible, ergonomics of a gadget, rather than a camera.
So, I never did.
The OMD came along, and looked/looks really nice.
Shrug, I just never felt the karma from m43, this is just me.
As said in this thread previously, it's really a personal thing.
Then the FujiFilm X-Pro1 came out, bad reviews again, AF speed, and lack of X-Trans support.
Then the FujiFilm X-E1 came out, same bad things said as about the X-Pro1.
Things eventually got better for both X-Trans and the AF firmware updates.
The more I read about X-Trans, the more I liked and wanted it.
I did it, bought the FujiFilm X-E1 and the Fujinon XF 35/1.4
Since then have gotten the Fujinon XF 18-55
LOVE IT!
I haven't used my 5DMkII since!
Of course, I am not gonna give up my DSLRS for the FujiFilm X-E1 system, but, it is a great 2nd system choice for me, YMMV...
As I see it, It is VERY difficult trying to do all your homework from web reviews, probably the best way is to try different systems, maybe via rentals.
Good luck!



Apr 25, 2013 at 03:33 PM
hashaama
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p.1 #16 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Thanks everyone, great info. I think I am going to wait till Olympus release the anticipated ep5. Saw some shots on the net no specs yet though. Also there is some people saying new improved eos m may be released soon.

Thanks
Hash



Apr 27, 2013 at 10:10 AM
philber
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p.1 #17 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Hash, in the mirrorless world, with 6 players, there is bound to be at leat one "new and improved" camera just about to be released, if not two. This means that "waiting for the newest ans best" Is another way of ending up forever on the fence.


Apr 27, 2013 at 11:22 AM
AlexF
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p.1 #18 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


Personally I prefer Fuji X-E1 to all other m-l systems. The whole artifacts problem is blown out of proportion - at least in my eyes - I don't shoot landscape so I never actually noticed it... Quality is excellent, so good that I use it at weddings alongside with canon 5DII (when I don't need the fast autofocus). To me the autofocus is the only weak point of the system and its good enough for most things outside of sports and parts of event photography.


Apr 27, 2013 at 11:40 AM
mawz
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p.1 #19 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


ISO1600 wrote:
Sony has a newish 20mm f2.8 pancake for the NEX. I don't know if there are any field reports for that lens, but it would give you a 35mm equivalent on a bigger sensor than M4/3, with a nice EVF to boot.
The newer Sony cameras have a standard hot shoe.

I personally think the NEX-6 and the 20/2.8 would probably be quite a nice shooter.


Sony currently offers the best 35mm-e in a mirrorless system in the ZA E 24/1.8. The 20/2.8 is more of a 30mm equivalent (really a 28mm replacement). The ZA24 is a superb lens, but largish (it's almost exactly the same size as a Nikkor 24/2.8 AI-S on an F mount adapter)

Of course you also have 2 AF 35mm-e options in m43 as well, the older and thoroughly average but absolutely tiny 17/2.8 and the newer and much better 17/1.8, both from Olympus.

Both the Oly 17/1.8 and the ZA24 are optimized for mid-distance shooting and lose some performance at infinity, although the ZA24 is no slouch at infinity and I'd expect similar from the Oly. The Oly seems a step behind the ZA24 in IQ, but that leave it as merely excellent.



Apr 28, 2013 at 02:53 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #20 · Mirror-less System Recommendations


mawz wrote:
Sony currently offers the best 35mm-e in a mirrorless system in the ZA E 24/1.8. The 20/2.8 is more of a 30mm equivalent (really a 28mm replacement). The ZA24 is a superb lens, but largish (it's almost exactly the same size as a Nikkor 24/2.8 AI-S on an F mount adapter)

Of course you also have 2 AF 35mm-e options in m43 as well, the older and thoroughly average but absolutely tiny 17/2.8 and the newer and much better 17/1.8, both from Olympus.

Both the Oly 17/1.8 and the ZA24 are optimized for mid-distance shooting and lose some performance at infinity,
...Show more

Micro 4/3rds also has the Voigtlander 17.5mm f/0.95 which is a largish. I don't have one, but from the samples I have seen around here it seems to be stunning from f/1.4 or wider in aperture. I think someone around here has one and can comment on it, but it may even surpass the ZA 24 in performance.



Apr 28, 2013 at 03:44 AM
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