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Archive 2013 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!
  
 
telyt
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p.3 #1 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


ryankarr wrote:
I think R users need to move on. Waiting around hoping a company will produce the perfect camera for you is ludicrous.


I'll assume you have the wisdom to make choices for yourself. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:28 AM
douglasf13
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p.3 #2 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


telyt wrote:
Wrong. I use a plain matte viewscreen and focus wherever the subject is in the viewfinder. It's a critical feature for me.


In that case, it would be the equivalent to using focus peaking without magnification.



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:32 AM
naturephoto1
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p.3 #3 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


telyt wrote:
Wrong. I use a plain matte viewscreen and focus wherever the subject is in the viewfinder. It's a critical feature for me.

Scrolling a magnified live-view image is a "meh" feature for me. My subjects move much too often to be following them around with a scroll wheel. A big full image would be much better for me.


Doug,

You beat me to it. I was going to mention that the screen of the R cameras could be changed and a Ground glass is an option.

Rich


Edited on Feb 28, 2013 at 02:43 AM · View previous versions



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:38 AM
telyt
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p.3 #4 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


douglasf13 wrote:
In that case, it would be the equivalent to using focus peaking without magnification.


Except that for R lenses the lens is focussed at working aperture. Focussing on the plain matte viewscreen (or any TTL focussing system) is quicker and more accurate at a wider aperture.



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:39 AM
naturephoto1
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p.3 #5 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


ryankarr wrote:
I think R users need to move on. Waiting around hoping a company will produce the perfect camera for you is ludicrous.


Maybe, had the roles been reversed and the M had been dropped from production and the R had continued in production you might have a different opinion.

Rich



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:40 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #6 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


telyt wrote:
Wrong. I use a plain matte viewscreen and focus wherever the subject is in the viewfinder. It's a critical feature for me.

Scrolling a magnified live-view image is a "meh" feature for me. My subjects move much too often to be following them around with a scroll wheel. A big full image would be much better for me.


Telyt, you can do the same with the M. Use the entire frame with focus peaking. Works very well with longer lenses in my experience.



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:41 AM
philip_pj
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p.3 #7 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


Agree Ed, they wanted their M cake and offered a Hasselblad Lunar cookie on the side. People are bound to want something that works well for the money, something modern and good, once you get past the narrow M niche. Market expectations change, the bar is higher now.

'Smaller and ergonomic FF cameras are at the edge of Sony's commercial reality', is more like it. How did these guys go from 'never be another Alpha full-frame to this?' is the question. It's not just great now, but moving very fast towards even better, for the EVF tolerant. They have momentum and can be expected not to waste it.

Not many R lenses will balance on an RX type camera either, a lot of people will end up with a small system for street and casual; and the DSLR for tele/macro/specialist, much like now but better. An ILC RX would hurt Leica no end, even without M lenses.

I could never figure out why Leica did not do a ZE of updated R lenses. Failing that, moving on is called 'Leitax'.



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:44 AM
telyt
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p.3 #8 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


edwardkaraa wrote:
Telyt, you can do the same with the M. Use the entire frame with focus peaking. Works very well with longer lenses in my experience.


I'd have to see it for myself. From what I've heard the viewfinder isn't responsive enough for active subjects, and focus peaking's range of acceptable sharpness may differ from mine. I read it on the internet, it must be true.



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:47 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #9 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


naturephoto1 wrote:
Maybe, had the roles been reversed and the M had been dropped from production and the R had continued in production you might have a different opinion.

Rich


As an owner of 6 M mount lenses, and none of them is Leica (as you can see I have no attachment whatsoever to this company), if the M mount was dropped for any reason, I have absolutely no problem to use them on a Nex or Ricoh body. To think that you have such wonderful FF options, much better than the Leica M, such as the the D800 or the 6D, I wouldn't have hesitated even for 1 second. At least they are designed for SLR lenses. But to each his own.



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:48 AM
douglasf13
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p.3 #10 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


telyt wrote:
Except that for R lenses the lens is focussed at working aperture. Focussing on the plain matte viewscreen (or any TTL focussing system) is quicker and more accurate at a wider aperture.


Although I obviously haven't used Leica's implementation of focus peaking, I've used ground glass and focus peaking quite a bit in my life, and I'd chose focus peaking for quickness, and it's probably a draw on accuracy. YMMV.



Feb 28, 2013 at 02:53 AM
 

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edwardkaraa
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p.3 #11 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


philip_pj wrote:
Agree Ed, they wanted their M cake and offered a Hasselblad Lunar cookie on the side. People are bound to want something that works well for the money, something modern and good, once you get past the narrow M niche. Market expectations change, the bar is higher now.

'Smaller and ergonomic FF cameras are at the edge of Sony's commercial reality', is more like it. How did these guys go from 'never be another Alpha full-frame to this?' is the question. It's not just great now, but moving very fast towards even better, for the EVF tolerant. They have momentum and
...Show more

Exactly my thoughts Philip.



Feb 28, 2013 at 03:01 AM
telyt
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p.3 #12 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


edwardkaraa wrote:
... such wonderful FF options, much better than the Leica M, such as the the D800 or the 6D ...


6D, perhaps, if the optical viewfinder is calibrated better than the typical non-1 series Canons traditionally are, if you can ignore the color gradation, and remove the AA filter. Nikon ANYTHING is a kludge at best for using extenders. They don't sound wonderful to me.


Edited on Feb 28, 2013 at 03:32 AM · View previous versions



Feb 28, 2013 at 03:16 AM
telyt
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p.3 #13 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


douglasf13 wrote:
Although I obviously haven't used Leica's implementation of focus peaking, I've used ground glass and focus peaking quite a bit in my life, and I'd chose focus peaking for quickness, and it's probably a draw on accuracy. YMMV.


Which ground glass viewfinder, which lens, what working aperture, what subject?



Feb 28, 2013 at 03:19 AM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.3 #14 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


Lee Saxon wrote:
I cannot believe Leica didn't laugh CMOSIS out of the room when they told them about that limitation. I'd rather have Nikon's interpolated fakeview on the D800 than one-spot-only live view. I can't believe how much Ming Thein downplayed this one in his review.

Right now the one and only selling point of this camera is that it's the only full frame mirrorless (unless you want to deal with the ergonomic hassles of shooting stills with a VG900). Once Sony gets around to putting that fabulous A99/VG900 sensor and EVF into a stills-focused mirrorless body...

Not an unreasonable point. I will
...Show more

Hopefully we can see real reviews now that it's available to the public.



Feb 28, 2013 at 03:24 AM
douglasf13
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p.3 #15 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


telyt wrote:
Which ground glass viewfinder, which lens, what working aperture, what subject?


Most recently, Hasselblad and A900 viewfinders with multiple screens, various everything else. I took to focus peaking surprisingly well. Plus, the beauty of shooting at aperture is no focus shift issues.



Feb 28, 2013 at 03:31 AM
telyt
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p.3 #16 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


douglasf13 wrote:
Most recently, Hasselblad and A900 viewfinders with multiple screens, various everything else. I took to focus peaking surprisingly well. Plus, the beauty of shooting at aperture is no focus shift issues.


My R lenses don't have focus shift issues, and the R matte viewscreens are responsive enough and accurate enough for active birds.











or a weasel running toward the camera



Can focus peaking in an EVF keep up with these subjects?



Feb 28, 2013 at 03:37 AM
ryankarr
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p.3 #17 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


telyt wrote:
I'll assume you have the wisdom to make choices for yourself. I'd appreciate the same courtesy.


Notice how I put the words "I think" in there?


naturephoto1 wrote:
Maybe, had the roles been reversed and the M had been dropped from production and the R had continued in production you might have a different opinion.

Rich


I would be upset, but I wouldn't cross my fingers and wait for half a decade.

I think it's quite clear that Leica is not going to provide an R solution that accommodates classic R users.

- They don't make the lenses anymore
- That market segment is saturated with Nikon and Canon
- They created the S-series which arguably has some overlap.

Leica is a small, privately owned company that has had fairly recent financial troubles. They're doing well now because their financial model works.



Feb 28, 2013 at 04:09 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #18 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


In my own experience with ZM lenses on the Ricoh GXR-M, focus peaking works very well with moving subjects, especially with longer lenses. I found it much better than traditional ground glass focusing. Of course, the M 240 is an unknown entity, and some people don't get along with focus peaking, but for me personally, it works great.


Feb 28, 2013 at 04:34 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #19 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


Same arguments, different thread, though seemingly a bit more terse this time around.

It would appear Leica's marketing department was ingenuous to numerous dedicated R lens owners when describing the M as an R solution. Sure, it's a solution in that the lenses fit with an adapter, you can focus them and take a picture. Will that all work in a manner many would like? Apparently not.

My guess, Leica being relatively small with somewhat restricted resources, was faced with a number of compromises, whether from CMOSIS, use of the existing Maestro processor vs the cost of implementing a newer version and possibly a lot of new code... Whatever the case, it's a compromise. Even if the live view implementation was as perfect as 2013 technology allows, it would still present compromises compared to an optical finder SLR. But that simply isn't an M solution.

Leica rolled the dice down the middle and seems to have missed the mark in the eyes of the traditionalists and those looking for a clean break.

Had Leica discontinued the M system instead back when R was shelved, I simply wouldn't be using Leica, period.

But they didn't and I, and apparently many others, were attracted to the M9 as a small FF alternative, with small, excellent optics. That seems to be where Leica is focusing with the M.

Most certainly there will be other MILC FF options available soon. Great if you want to adapt SLR lenses. For those who think MILC should equal small, that's a difficult option to accept, and hence the appeal of the M system. Never say never, but so far I wouldn't hold my breath that other MILC FF manufacturers will provide a friendly rangefinder lens compatible sensor solution. Chances are, Leica will remain the best option, whether or not live view works as well as it should. The bottom line for all of us, I think, is image quality, and that's where the M, M-E, M9, MM distinguish themselves in conjunction with comparatively small rangefinder lenses.



Feb 28, 2013 at 05:06 AM
douglasf13
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p.3 #20 · The New Leica M - Is HERE!


telyt wrote:
My R lenses don't have focus shift issues, and the R matte viewscreens are responsive enough and accurate enough for active birds.

Can focus peaking in an EVF keep up with these subjects?


I'm not sure. I don't shoot wildlife, but I'd imagine that you'll be able to do it. Either way, the whole point of this conversation was in regards to the idea that you can't move the magnified focus box around, which I don't think would apply to the type of shooting that you're talking about, anyways.



Feb 28, 2013 at 05:22 AM
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