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Archive 2013 · Do you offer discounts?

  
 
Tony Hoffer
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Do you offer discounts?


TRReichman wrote:
I want a huge cut.

- trr


I can only afford a medium sized cut... Can you work with me a little on this? Your quotes are the best, but I'm just not sure if I can push it that much.



Feb 22, 2013 at 01:01 PM
morby
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Do you offer discounts?


Tony Hoffer wrote:
I can only afford a medium sized cut... Can you work with me a little on this? Your quotes are the best, but I'm just not sure if I can push it that much.


You guys suck! Tony, you probably have bidding wars for the dates you are free



Feb 22, 2013 at 01:14 PM
friscoron
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Do you offer discounts?


TRReichman wrote:
When you start thinking about yourself as behind other people, or without the advantages they have (i.e. they are "more established") I feel obligated to ask what specifically has to happen for you to feel that you could enjoy the same advantage? It is probably less than you think, and you are probably creating the obstacles you're facing.

- trr


Is this for me, Todd? I've shot 7 weddings that were my own, and as a photographer not a single paid wedding before July 2012. If that doesn't put me behind you and Tony and the others, I'm a little worried about you guys. :-)

I've got 12 weddings booked for 2013, so I think I can finish with 20-plus this year. A nice improvement, but even that -- at my current pricing -- doesn't put me on the same level as you and the others.

I really can't imagine that you're saying that I should be able to go from 7 low-end weddings in 2012 to a TRR-esque year in 2013, unless I'm creating my own obstacles? I don't mean to come across as defensive, just dealing in my reality. I see what inquiries come through for me, maybe 4-8 month. For me, my plan has been growth year over year. 2014 will be a good year. 2015 will be an exciting year. But I can't snap my fingers and surround myself with everything I need to be in position to have that exciting year in 2013. If you know of a way I can do it, I'm all ears! Dumbo-sized!



Feb 22, 2013 at 01:17 PM
joelconner
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Do you offer discounts?


I have discounted a number of times because I wanted to work with the couple. Most of the times, it has been friends that I knew for certain could not afford more (and two of those we did for free). I have not regretted a single of one of those times, and we have never been taken advantage of by friends.

As for non-friends, we have made a few cuts to our pricing to make it work (both by taking out things from the package and reducing our fees). I have regretted all but one time we did that. We have one next weekend, and I just found out that (after we had give them a deal because they were booking late and we rarely have anything in March) they have also hired a videographer. Obviously, things were not as tight as they let on.



Feb 22, 2013 at 01:18 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Do you offer discounts?


friscoron wrote:
Is this for me, Todd? I've shot 7 weddings that were my own, and as a photographer not a single paid wedding before July 2012. If that doesn't put me behind you and Tony and the others, I'm a little worried about you guys. :-)

I've got 12 weddings booked for 2013, so I think I can finish with 20-plus this year. A nice improvement, but even that -- at my current pricing -- doesn't put me on the same level as you and the others.

I really can't imagine that you're saying that I should be able to go from
...Show more

I think what Todd is saying isn't that everyone should have the same experience level as someone who has been around longer. Rather, I think his point is that most of us sucked when we had only shot a few weddings and that there's no magic talent that is unattainable. I would imagine that his point was just to say that those of us who have been around longer are trying to share what we've learned thus far. And thus far I have learned that discounting is not a way to build a business.

We all were there. I shot 7 weddings my first year too. The next year I discounted two packages for people and it was a huge mistake, financially as well as from the perspective of building my business. It set me back. The only positive is that I learned to never do it again. I'd probably say that discounting while you're building your business is the worst time to do it.



Feb 22, 2013 at 01:25 PM
friscoron
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Do you offer discounts?



Thanks, Tony. That's helpful to know.



Feb 22, 2013 at 01:49 PM
Jamesbjenkins
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Do you offer discounts?


We do 10% off package prices and print purchases for active police and military. That's purely out of respect, and because I'm a military brat and I understand how unappreciated most of them are.

I have a secret discount of 25% that's reserved for VERY close friends and family, but that's extremely rare.

I have very carefully set my prices. If somebody has a problem with them, they can keep on walking. I'm pretty confident the product and service I offer is in line with the price. That's about as simple as I can make it.

Once you start down the discount road, you become a lot more like a retail whore than a creative professional.



Feb 22, 2013 at 04:27 PM
TheGE
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Do you offer discounts?


Tony Hoffer wrote:
I'd probably say that discounting while you're building your business is the worst time to do it.


Then that would be always. I think by definition we're always, always building the business. You can never take it for granted that you've arrived.

To all: You know what's happened over time is that we've forgotten what the strategy originally was behind discounting.

We think of it as simply offering a reduced price, but Wannamaker's, the first department store in the States, who came up with the modern concept as far as I know, discounted sheets in February, it being a slow month, to bring in customers. And not to sell the sheets - but to sell everything else at full price in the store those customers would be exposed to, which would then not only pay for the whole deal because they'd on the whole buy more than just the sheets, but also provide cash flow in those needed times of the year.

That's a far cry from offering a discount just to get a gig. That's just selling a discounted sheet.



Feb 22, 2013 at 04:50 PM
TRReichman
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Do you offer discounts?


Tony Hoffer wrote:
I think what Todd is saying isn't that everyone should have the same experience level as someone who has been around longer. Rather, I think his point is that most of us sucked when we had only shot a few weddings and that there's no magic talent that is unattainable. I would imagine that his point was just to say that those of us who have been around longer are trying to share what we've learned thus far. And thus far I have learned that discounting is not a way to build a business.


This is all true but not exactly what I was trying to say. I'm very much against the hero worship in our industry because it keeps people underachieving. Whenever I see a comment like "well, that's fine for Tony but for the rest of us..." I feel obligated to say something. When you put someone on a pedestal you limit your own potential and perspective to being less than whoever is on the pedestal. That's crazy. Assume that you could be beyond the pedestal tomorrow and you'll surprise yourself.

- trr



Feb 22, 2013 at 08:31 PM
friscoron
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Do you offer discounts?



Well, the hero worship isn't coming from me. I admire Tony's work and I really respect the business that he has built. Same with a few others who are here on FM Weddings.

The Wedding forum on FM is strife with a very tight clique that it seems you can only be a part of after hanging out with each other at the workshops that are held each year. It's only natural, though. Friendships develop through things like that, spending time with each other, breaking bread, drinking beer, and doing some dirty dancing. If I were there, I'd be just as guilty of it/prone to it as anyone.

My comment about Tony being able to not have to offer discounts, where I might feel compelled to just to increase any business, is driven by the fact that Tony business is in a loftier place than mine is. It has nothing to do with my putting him, or anyone else, on a pedestal. I firmly believe my business will be really successful by 2015, and it's just that I'm more than a tad bit impatient to get there.



Feb 22, 2013 at 10:49 PM
morby
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Do you offer discounts?


friscoron wrote:
I really can't imagine that you're saying that I should be able to go from 7 low-end weddings in 2012 to a TRR-esque year in 2013, unless I'm creating my own obstacles? I don't mean to come across as defensive, just dealing in my reality. I see what inquiries come through for me, maybe 4-8 month. For me, my plan has been growth year over year. 2014 will be a good year. 2015 will be an exciting year. But I can't snap my fingers and surround myself with everything I need to be in position to have that exciting year
...Show more

My strategy for growth was exactly the same as yours. It was slow growth. My base price point changes were $500, $800, $1200, $1500, $1900, $3000 and $3500. I only shot a handful of weddings from 2001-2009, and my big growth years were 2010, 2011 & 2012. I didn't go full time until July 2012. In the greater Philadelphia area there are thousands of "wedding photographers" (many which are really good) and because of that I feel slow growth is the way to go. There are a select few that blow up over night, but I think it's rare. My business has been built on producing quality work, having good relationships with my clients and partnerships with vendors. If I would have priced myself at my desired price point in 2010, without anything to back that up, I feel I'd get overlooked because there are so many photographers to choose from. I wouldn't have shot the number of weddings I have, gained experience, built a portfolio I'm proud of or connected with so many other vendors. My belief is that experience is really important for building a successful business. My referrals come from (in this order)...

1. Past couples
2. Vendors
3. Other Photographers
4. Social Media
5. Google Searches

It's taken time to build a sustainable network from which I generate referrals. Many couples pass me by, but because I have a wide reach I'm still able to generate a large amount of referrals. Because of that I'm able to book the amount of weddings I need at the average price that keeps my business profitable.

A side note, Malcom Gladwell has a book called "The Tipping Point" (great read for business owners). In there he talks about connectors. They are the types of people that know a lot of people on a surface level (the people you see with thousands of friends on Facebook). Connectors are vital in making a business successful (what he calls the tipping point for a business). I've found that my "connector brides" have brought in more business than anything else. I can count on one hand who my connector brides are and from them I've received hundreds of referrals. That point might discount everything I said above about "slow growth", but it's good food for thought.



Feb 23, 2013 at 11:53 AM
morby
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Do you offer discounts?


After the back and forth I ended up booking the wedding (without giving a discount). Thanks for the feedback and advice! It's helped me to reevaluate my reasoning behind why I offer discounts and what I want for my business.


Feb 27, 2013 at 08:46 AM
TheGE
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Do you offer discounts?


morby wrote:
My strategy for growth was exactly the same as yours. It was slow growth.

...That point might discount everything I said above about "slow growth", but


But nothing. "Slow growth" is just a concept. It caters to a certain comfort zone. They rationalize it. It's a made up concept, and you bought into it. All right, but it's only a choice. Some other guy starts his business the same time as you and grows fast. Why? Because they realize they have that choice. And they said, "OK. For me to get where I want to be, I have to do this, this, this and that." They're not afraid to fail. They fail forward. They don't wait until it's perfect. For them it's about taking imperfect action. "It's never going to be the right time so f#ck it, let's do it now" - that's the mind set. Whereas the slow growth guy is maybe saying "well let's see if this happens first. Then I'll bump this up incrementally until I feel ok with that. I don't feel I can get more than that. It wouldn't be right. It's better this way."

So, slow growth is what happens when you take incremental steps. Incremental results is what you get. The other guy took some incremental steps, but he also took leaps. And lots of them.



Mar 02, 2013 at 10:42 AM
friscoron
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Do you offer discounts?


morby wrote:
My strategy for growth was exactly the same as yours. It was slow growth.


Sorry, I know what I wrote may have sounded like slow growth, but I have zero patience for slow growth. So I'm with TheGE on this one.

I'm on track to triple my weddings for 2013 (somewhat easy when you only had 7 the previous year), but I've doubled my price. In 2014, my goal is to shoot 30-40 weddings at over $3k average for photography, but I'm also re-introducing video this year and aim to offer only a high-end wedding video brand. (I began as a wedding videographer.)

Ron



Mar 02, 2013 at 11:47 AM
morby
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Do you offer discounts?


TheGE wrote:
But nothing. "Slow growth" is just a concept. It caters to a certain comfort zone. They rationalize it. It's a made up concept, and you bought into it. All right, but it's only a choice. Some other guy starts his business the same time as you and grows fast. Why? Because they realize they have that choice. And they said, "OK. For me to get where I want to be, I have to do this, this, this and that." They're not afraid to fail. They fail forward. They don't wait until it's perfect. For them it's about taking imperfect action.
...Show more

You're probably right. I don't know a whole lot about business strategies, just some observations I've made and books I've read. Taking the right steps, confidence and selling yourself probably prove more effective than taking comfortable baby steps. I'm not one to take big risks, so I guess my strategy more reflects my personality than anything else. Point well made!



Mar 02, 2013 at 11:52 AM
morby
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Do you offer discounts?


If I think about it I didn't go the slow growth route. In the summer of 2009 I began to take my business seriously (so that's when I truly consider "starting" my business). In that time I went from shooting 12 weddings in 2009 to 37 in 2012 and average close to 5 times more per wedding. The slow growth for me came more from doing smaller price jumps every 6 months rather than one huge jump right away.


Mar 02, 2013 at 12:24 PM
friscoron
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Do you offer discounts?



I think we all have to follow our own paths. We have to be true to ourselves: in our business model, in our interaction with clients, and in our photography style. One is not better than another. I'm a balls-to-the-walls sort of guy and I've crashed into trees at 40mph on my snow sled because I was going too fast to make a turn. Man, that was fun, but my sled was toast!

Yeah, it doesn't sound like you were completely conservative, you followed a steady growth plan over several years. Nice job!



Mar 02, 2013 at 01:51 PM
tobicus
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Do you offer discounts?


We're still figuring things out ourselves. It's definitely a process.


Apr 27, 2013 at 08:54 AM
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