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Archive 2013 · Dynamic Range
  
 
chez
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p.3 #1 · Dynamic Range


alundeb wrote:
No. I don't understand either where dhphoto is heading with this.


I don't think dhphoto understands either...he is just shooting from his hip.



Feb 20, 2013 at 04:54 PM
goosemang
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p.3 #2 · Dynamic Range


that's it, i'm going back to daguerreotypes.


Feb 20, 2013 at 04:56 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.3 #3 · Dynamic Range


Very little signal in this noise


Feb 20, 2013 at 04:56 PM
alundeb
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p.3 #4 · Dynamic Range


dhphoto wrote:
I'm not 'heading' anywhere.

I'm trying to explain that 'want' is not the same as 'need'.

At least I was, rather bored of it now.


I don't think we even needed that explanation.



Feb 20, 2013 at 04:58 PM
MayaTlab
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p.3 #5 · Dynamic Range


goosemang wrote:
that's it, i'm going back to daguerreotypes.


Sorry, but that's for lazy people. If you had real talent, you'd pick up a palette, a brush, and start painting.



Feb 20, 2013 at 05:00 PM
AGeoJO
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p.3 #6 · Dynamic Range


As always, this or similar topic will bring out the best out of us . It never fails, so far, at least.


Feb 20, 2013 at 05:00 PM
goosemang
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p.3 #7 · Dynamic Range


MayaTlab wrote:
Sorry, but that's for lazy people. If you had real talent, you'd pick up a palette, a brush, and start painting.





you guys should check out this video by the way (off topic)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiHuO91_ATE



Feb 20, 2013 at 05:02 PM
MayaTlab
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p.3 #8 · Dynamic Range


goosemang wrote:
you guys should check out this video by the way (off topic)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiHuO91_ATE


Very impressive, thank you.



Feb 20, 2013 at 05:09 PM
time2clmb
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p.3 #9 · Dynamic Range


I can already see the noise and banding on the building on the left. The Nikon would not produce that banding or close to that level of noise if shot at a low ISO.

Are you sure? All I see is vertical paneling on the building...



Feb 20, 2013 at 05:16 PM
ggreene
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p.3 #10 · Dynamic Range


If you truly "need" better DR you go out and get it. If you "want" better DR you come onto Forums and start a thread.


Feb 20, 2013 at 05:25 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



Jeff Nolten
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p.3 #11 · Dynamic Range


ggreene wrote:
If you truly "need" better DR you go out and get it. If you "want" better DR you come onto Forums and start a thread.


I think SaneProduction's thread is quite valid. I'd like to see more examples like Bruce's that demonstrate the use/effectiveness of Nikon's vs Canon's DR. Otherwise how will I know if my "need" is real?



Feb 20, 2013 at 05:31 PM
artd
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p.3 #12 · Dynamic Range


saneproduction wrote:
We always hear about the d800 sensor is amazing for shadow recovery, but can anyone post some images that show the real world use and why the 5dIII is not good enough?

Yes. Well, not from a 5DIII, but a 5DII (which has the same dynamic range):
http://www.arthurdomagala.com/blog/2012/04/dynamic-range-canon-dslrs-and-shadow-noise-dealing-with-it/
(I've posted this a few times previously when the same question has been asked, so I won't go into extensive details here again.)

Here is another example from a recent photoshoot of a newly constructed prison:





As you can see, there is a huge skylight flooding the common area of the cell block with light. The dark gray cell doors along the catwalk, however, are not illuminated and come out way too dark in the original photo. Setting up extra lighting on each door is not an option. When processing the photo, the simplest thing to try is lifting the shadows, but that leads to very evident shadow banding on the doors. The eventual solution is a combination of blending multiple exposures and masked noise reduction. So in this case, yes, it is quite plain that an EXMOR sensor could have handled this scenario much better than the Canon sensor.

On average, I'd say I run into a circumstance at least once every photoshoot where the dynamic range is an issue and I either have to set up extra lighting on site, or I have to do extra post processing work on the computer. (Why don't I use a D800, you might ask? Because Canon's TS-E lenses are more important to me.)

The thing I keep trying to explain is this: scenarios where dynamic range becomes a real issue with Canon are rare, and when they occur, there is usually a workaround. But: that doesn't mean I don't want a better sensor. Because it would be a nice benefit to my time and productivity if I could simplify my shooting and processing and not worry about workarounds.



Feb 20, 2013 at 05:36 PM
artd
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p.3 #13 · Dynamic Range


dhphoto wrote:
I have asked before and nobody could point me to a photograph that simply *had* to have been taken on a Nikon or a camera with supposed extra DR. IMO the differences between the IQ of a Canon and Nikon are more technical than real.

Not to be rude, but you have asked before and then ignored when examples are provided.




Feb 20, 2013 at 05:40 PM
AGeoJO
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p.3 #14 · Dynamic Range


artd wrote:
The thing I keep trying to explain is this: scenarios where dynamic range becomes a real issue with Canon are rare, and when they occur, there is usually a workaround. But: that doesn't mean I don't want a better sensor. Because it would be a nice benefit to my time and productivity if I could simplify my shooting and processing and not worry about workarounds.


There is a lot of truth in this but at the same time, it challenges the photographer's skill more so, which is not a bad thing. But at the same time, I could detect that there is a hint of "the grass looks greener from this side" feeling in there . True that a better sensor will be more forgiving but still it is not like if you shoot with a better sensor you don't have to do similar careful process of exposing and post processing to get the desired results.



Feb 20, 2013 at 06:03 PM
dhphoto
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p.3 #15 · Dynamic Range


artd wrote:
Not to be rude, but you have asked before and then ignored when examples are provided.


And once again I have not seen this magical photo that *MUST* have been taken on a Nikon. Not once. Not ever.

Lots of examples of when and how the Nikon would be so much better, but not one shot that actually proves, difinitively that it must have been taken on a Nikon with the magical dynamic range



Feb 20, 2013 at 06:10 PM
kevindar
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p.3 #16 · Dynamic Range


this is always a silly post to me, and I dont know what it keeps on coming up. For those who say, well we used to deal with slide film, or a lot of times you can fix the problem and better lighting, I would reiterate what Chez said. the same argument can be used about many other advancements, like cleaner high iso, faster fps, autofocus, in camera metering, etc. to say additional DR is not useful, is to say every canon 5d3 shooter who is using a 2 stop gnd, or is bracketting shots for blending later is obviously incompetent. this does not even account for exposure errors that we all make. Its just a silly argument. Is it the only feature that matters? no. Nonone is saying that. Is the DR of 5d3 very good for many circumstances, absolutely. the feature are however very useful for landscape photographers, amongst others.


Feb 20, 2013 at 06:14 PM
alundeb
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p.3 #17 · Dynamic Range


dhphoto wrote:
And once again I have not seen this magical photo that *MUST* have been taken on a Nikon. Not once. Not ever.


That *MUST* is a straw man. Nobody is saying that there are photos that *MUST* have been taken with a Nikon. They just give better quality. If you take a shot at ISO 25600 and it has some noise and maybe a little banding. With a little effort you can make it usable. But the quality difference to an image taken at ISO 3200 is visible. Still the image *MUST* not have been taken at ISO 3200.



Feb 20, 2013 at 06:16 PM
artd
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p.3 #18 · Dynamic Range


AGeoJO wrote:
There is a lot of truth in this but at the same time, it challenges the photographer's skill more so, which is not a bad thing. But at the same time, I could detect that there is a hint of "the grass looks greener from this side" feeling in there . True that a better sensor will be more forgiving but still it is not like if you shoot with a better sensor you don't have to do similar careful process of exposing and post processing to get the desired results.

I'm less worried about my skill being challenged, and more about my time being challenged A better sensor does not mean I will shoot with less care or be sloppy in my exposures or my processing. Rather it means my workflow will be faster and more efficient.

People like dhphoto have accused me of being "lazy" for not wanting to take the time to "properly light" a scene. The photoshoot I referenced above, there was a window of one day that the architect had available for me to shoot the entire facility. I was on site at dawn and left late in the evening. Combined with my drive to the site and then the drive home, that was around a 16-hour work day (with about a 20 minute pause for a sandwich). And then of course there are all the hours of processing the photos afterward. Sorry, I don't buy the "lazy" argument.

So would I want a better sensor that would let me expedite my work flow both on site and on my computer? Would I like to save time by setting up fewer lights, taking fewer multiple exposures for blending, spending less time creating masks for noise reduction in Photoshop? Hell yes.

"Grass is greener?" No. The shadows are cleaner! That much is not an illusion.


Edited on Feb 20, 2013 at 06:45 PM · View previous versions



Feb 20, 2013 at 06:25 PM
dhphoto
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p.3 #19 · Dynamic Range


alundeb wrote:
That *MUST* is a straw man.


Yes, it absolutely is.

You simply cannot tell what high-end camera something was taken with when used by someone skilled.

The benefits of this supposedly superior sensor are minute. That was my point.




Feb 20, 2013 at 06:26 PM
goosemang
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p.3 #20 · Dynamic Range


i'll tell you one thing: i wouldn't take the DR if the 36 megapixels came with it. but as i understand it the other sony sensors are great as well? (24 megs or less?)


Feb 20, 2013 at 06:28 PM
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