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Archive 2013 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on th...

  
 
lxdesign
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


That's not even worth a response. Have a nice day.


Feb 19, 2013 at 06:45 PM
hjanssen
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


SweetMk wrote:
Nikon claims 4 stops better performance due to VR.


Nikon claims 4 stops better, but doesn't know from what. They don't program every user's vibration in the camera. So you have to find your own VR first.



Feb 19, 2013 at 07:05 PM
Graystar
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


lxdesign wrote:
That's not even worth a response. Have a nice day.

That's fine by me. I can only give light to someone who wants to come out of the dark.



Feb 19, 2013 at 07:52 PM
Zebrabot
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


lxdesign wrote:
I don't use any auto exposure modes... Even aperture priority.


Whoah, can I be your friend?



Feb 19, 2013 at 07:58 PM
lxdesign
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


Zebrabot wrote:
Whoah, can I be your friend?


sure..... but seriously, the misconception that you cannot react quickly with manual settings is just a pile of rubbish. I get better results shooting manually, and I am proud of the work I do. Last year I attended a lecture by a top notch photojournalist for the Toronto Star -- who spoke to the benefits of shooting with manual settings - he gets jeering comments like these from his peers, but his images are excellent - and it only takes a second to adjust exposure. And for the record - I never owned a Nikon F, but I have an FM2 which I got LAST YEAR.



Feb 20, 2013 at 08:49 AM
SweetMk
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


Graystar wrote:
That's too bad...you're letting a lot of useful features go to waste. And if you think you somehow have more control over exposure by treating your modern marvel of technology like it's an original F, you're mistaken. The auto modes allow you to react to situations more quickly while providing the same precise control over exposure as M mode.

It's just a question of understanding how a modern camera works.


Graystar, if this camera is so smart, why can the D7000 not know what the correct exposure would be for a situation with VR factored in?

I guess we need a few more "SCENE" modes.

Nikon ignoring VR in its programmed exposure computations would just amaze me. Heck, the camera uses the focus distance of the lens to assist the flash determine correct exposure, using VR to its full benefit seems like the next step.



Feb 20, 2013 at 09:05 AM
egd5
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


@Graystar and lxdesign--Graystar is right in that you are leaving good choices on the table, BUT, it is your choice and if you're happy then great!!

@OP--You seem to really be missing the concept of how a camera determines exposure. Go back and reread some of the responses to your post. They explained it well. VR has really nothing to do with metering exposure, only with camera shake.



Feb 20, 2013 at 09:36 AM
SweetMk
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


egd5 wrote:
@Graystar and lxdesign--Graystar is right in that you are leaving good choices on the table, BUT, it is your choice and if you're happy then great!!

@OP--You seem to really be missing the concept of how a camera determines exposure. Go back and reread some of the responses to your post. They explained it well. VR has really nothing to do with metering exposure, only with camera shake.


Camera shake has EVERYTHING to do with exposure settings. I read the responses, I disagree.

This is identical to the situation of putting a camera on a tripod. When a camera is on a tripod, exposure settings change drastically. AUTOMATIC modes do not account for a tripod, but, there is no electrical connection to a tripod to tell the camera it is being stabilized.

If there were an electrical connection to the tripod, I would expect Nikon to take tripod stabilization into account when selecting a shutter speed for a exposure. WOOT! maybe some day my new tripod will have a CPU!!

I believe the position stated by the posters that VR has really nothing to do with selecting a shutter speed and f-stop to meter an exposure is not considering all the capabilities the D7000 has or should have.

I have had people tell me that the D7000 PROGRAM mode will pick the same shutter speed and f-stop if I have the 50mm f1.8 lens or the 300mm f4 lens on. That is just not correct. The camera is much more capable than that.

If VR has NOTHING to do with exposure, there would be no 1/focal length rule. Heck, even Nikon knows the new 1/focal length rule no longer is valid with the better sensors of modern cameras and has recomputed that rule to faster shutter speeds. such as 1/(2Xfocal length) or faster (whatever the number, do not hold my feet to the fire for some number, it is a concept I am trying to explain).

I am not trying to argue a point, I am only trying to find out the best way to get the most out of VR.

From the responses, that appears to be using VR in a shutter priority mode or aperture mode, rather than a "Automatic" mode, depending on the results I am trying to achieve.



Feb 20, 2013 at 10:14 AM
sjms
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


your question should more likely be: if the camera is so smart why can't it take in account for the user? and I'm not being factious either. the user in the end controls the spacial movement characteristics of the camera overall even in auto. there are limitations to the said features of the VR systems that for some reason users always tend to try to test and exceed the absolute limits of these and then blame the tool for their lack of common sense usage. understand what you are getting, usage and possible results. learn to work within your capabilities. VR does not guarantee results. it can make your image more usable though depending on the scenario and of course the user.

as was once famously said: "a man's got to know his limitations" H. Callahan



Feb 20, 2013 at 10:34 AM
egd5
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


If you meter a scene and it shows for example, 1/25 sec at f 2.8 and then put the camera on a tripod and meter the same scene it would still be 1/25 at 2.8. It would STILL be the same EXPOSURE setting.
or
meter the scene holding the camera still. Then shake the camera slightly. Does shaking the camera cause the light on the scene (the exposure)to change?

Are you confusing exposure with sharpness? Two pictures can have the same exposure (amount of light) but one can be blurry because of camera shake because it was handheld, while the other is not blurry because it was on a tripod or had VR help remove the shakiness.
ETA: Just a guess here, but,when you talk about exposure changing in different circumstances are you sure your focus point is on the same exact spot each time you meter. Even using matrix metering it can make a big difference whether you are on a light spot or a dark spot (even if they are right next to each other) when you press the button to meter.



Feb 20, 2013 at 02:40 PM
binary visions
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


I don't know why the OP is getting any grief for this.

Do you, or do you not take focal length and/or your ability to handhold a particular shutter speed into account when taking pictures?

If the answer is yes, and it should be yes for everyone, the OP is simply observing that the cameras could safely select slower shutter speeds, adjusting other parameters to be more optimal, to suit a VR lens.

If your exposure in auto-mode on a 100mm non-VR lens is f/8, 1/100th, ISO1600, then an intelligent auto-exposure system could detect the presence of VR and select ISO800 for a cleaner exposure, knowing that 1/50th is a reasonable shutter speed despite it not meeting the 1/FL "rule."

He is not confused about what exposure is, or what the purpose of the auto-modes are, or suggesting that the camera have a brain link with the user to adjust for personal deficiencies.

This seems eminently reasonable to me. I, personally, would like it if I could customize my auto-ISO settings to the point where I could say, "adjust ISO to meet 1/FL if the lens has no VR, or 1/(0.5 * FL) if the lens has VR" or some similar choice.



Feb 20, 2013 at 03:14 PM
curious80
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


^ +1. Most (not all) of the responders to the OP have no clue what the OP is talking about and are giving him hard time for a very legitimate question. Can you guys please take your time to actually understand what the OP is asking?


Feb 20, 2013 at 04:00 PM
egd5
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


OK, stated the way binary has it I begin to understand maybe what OP is trying to say.
If that is the case then, no, the cameras aren't that smart...yet.

Another movie quote---"what we have here is a failure to communicate."



Feb 20, 2013 at 05:15 PM
Graystar
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


binary visions wrote:
I don't know why the OP is getting any grief for this.

Do you, or do you not take focal length and/or your ability to handhold a particular shutter speed into account when taking pictures?


No, I rarely take focal length into account. The reason is that the shutter speed required to freeze the subject is generally greater than the 1/FL x Crop Factor rule. That rule only deals with camera shake.

It's a fairly general rule that you need around 1/120s to freeze people for portrait shots. So even with a crop camera, the rule falls short of the required shutter speed for focal lengths up to 70mm.

Many people have zoom lenses with VR on their crop cameras, which allow you to handhold at even lower speeds. For example, I have a 70-300 VR, and the rule says that for 300mm I should be shooting at 1/500s. But my lens has a 4-stop VR mechanism, so that allows me to shoot at 1/30s. Well, anything that I can shoot at 1/30s I can use a tripod for because it's not going anywhere.

This is why Nikon has the Minimum Shutter Speed setting in its AutoISO function. If I'm using my 70-300mm at 300mm for shooting gargolyes at Notre Dame, then I can set the MSS to 1/30s and that will ensure that I use base ISO all the way down to 1/30s. Only if the light requires more exposure will the ISO increase. If my next stop is a sports stadium, then I'm going to adjust my MSS to 1/500s to stop the action. Same focal length, vastly different shutter speed requirements. Why? Because it is subject matter that drives the shutter speed...not the focal length. Focal length is a secondary consideration.




Feb 20, 2013 at 05:18 PM
binary visions
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


So, because your choice in photographic subjects requires higher shutter speeds, the point of this discussion is invalid?

Sorry, but it's obvious and already accounted for that there are subjects which require certain shutter speeds. That does not, in the slightest, change the point of the conversation.

The point of the discussion is that VR can affect the minimum shutter speed required to successfully handhold a sharp image, and that the camera body could account for this in automatic metering modes.

I feel like people just need to be contrary. Is shutter priority a useless mode just because it can set the aperture too large to capture a subject in focus? Is VR completely pointless because some people need to freeze action instead of camera shake? Is autofocus dumb because macro shooters typically can't rely on it? No. They all have their uses.

Setting up specific scenarios where the issue doesn't apply is not helpful.



Feb 20, 2013 at 06:12 PM
Graystar
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


binary visions wrote:
So, because your choice in photographic subjects requires higher shutter speeds, the point of this discussion is invalid?


The assertion that the camera SHOULD be accounting for focal length is invalid because the camera doesn't know what it's photographing.




Feb 20, 2013 at 07:21 PM
binary visions
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


So it's better that the camera account for nothing at all in the auto modes? It has no information whatsoever about the subject. It DOES have information about the lens attached. I'd rather the camera make some basic adjustments for the information it does have, rather than inserting random values based on no information at all.

Alternately, if you're selecting a picture mode on a consumer camera, the landscape mode or night shooting mode could account for this while the sports mode can weight higher shutter speeds appropriately.



Feb 20, 2013 at 07:49 PM
James R
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


Sit on your couch and learn the camera and how it adjusts to light. Shoot it in A, S, M, and P. Shoot with higher ISO and lower ISO, same with Aperture and Shutter. It doesn't matter how past cameras handled similar scenes. You need to understand how the 7000 works. Also, try the various functions. Use your manual to understand them and see how they effect your images. Finally, do all this with various lenses and focal lengths.

Enjoy your new camera and lens.



Feb 20, 2013 at 08:06 PM
curious80
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


For first 5-6 years of my DSLR use, I shot pretty much only in M and Av mode because I find it simpler to just set the exposure parameters myself rather than expect the camera to know what I want. However over past couple of years I have started to some times use the P mode when traveling with family etc. Plus many shooters like my wife are just never going to go outside the P mode. So I am all for improvements to P mode. Obviously you cannot expect the camera to know what you are shooting but that doesn't mean it cannot take into account the additional information to become a bit more useful than being totally arbitrary. For example it is fairly reasonable to expect that the camera shouldn't select 1/60s as the shutter speed when a 300mm lens is mounted. Plus some of this information can be built into the scene modes as well, to make them more useful. For example if the landscape scene mode is selected than the camera can take the VR into account and allow lower shutter speed. Obviously there will always be situations where the camera will get it wrong but that is already true of the existing dumb auto modes. Making use of additional information can help in getting it "right" more often


Feb 20, 2013 at 09:52 PM
Graystar
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · "AUTO" and "P" modes and "VR" Effect on the D7000


binary visions wrote:
So it's better that the camera account for nothing at all in the auto modes?

In ASP modes, cameras have never done anything other than to match the EV of the meter with the EV of the aperture/shutter combination, either by changing shutter in S mode, aperture in A mode, or setting a pre-determined combination in P mode. THAT is the "auto" of auto-mode automation. In ASP modes, the camera makes no decisions for you.

Alternately, if you're selecting a picture mode on a consumer camera, the landscape mode or night shooting mode could account for this while the sports mode can weight higher shutter speeds appropriately.
That's exactly what Scene modes on modern cameras do. If you want your camera making the photographic decisions for you then Scene modes are the answer. Otherwise, in MASP modes you have to make all the decisions yourself (unless you use Matrix metering...in which case you're letting the camera make some of the exposure decision for you.)



Feb 20, 2013 at 10:04 PM
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