jorkata wrote:
So, if the 6D is not for the average Joe, why the below-average specs then
Are the one-point AF system (effectively) and the consumer ergonomics aimed at advanced users?
4 years ago we had a comparable situation in AF with 5D II. It became (and still is) the most succesfull FF DSLR. Purchased and used by "average Joes" like "pros". Now the 5D II is topped in every single point by 6D except shutter count/speed and the price is 400€ less.
I would wonder, if this camera will not be sold as succesful as 5D II was. By both, the "average Joes"and the "pros". Not everybody "needs" world best AF system, although it is fine to have.
When the 5DII came out, it was revolutionary (video), but outshined in EVERY other area just about, by the D700.
Now the 6D is the lightest FF DSLR, with built-in wifi/gps, and awesome low light "single point" AF- but technically it is outdone in most areas by the D600.
Had it not been for D600's oily sensor problems, mixed bag of build quality/feel, and new generation nikon control layout, I would have gone with the D600 over the 6D.
Overall, I'm very happy with it. It is an easy camera to use, with an amazing sensor.
jorkata wrote:
So, if the 6D is not for the average Joe, why the below-average specs then
Are the one-point AF system (effectively) and the consumer ergonomics aimed at advanced users?
It is not a "one-point AF system (effectively)". That is often stated, but still incorrect. I have used the outer points of the 5D and 5DII for years. The outer points work. They are not as good as the center, but they work.
And forum member ronno told us a few pages back: "I have used the 6D a few times, and the focusing is great! Even with the outer AF points." So the claim of a "one-point AF system (effectively)" is contradicted by someone who has actually used the camera.
And for people who don't want to use the outer AF points, even a one-point AF can be very effective. How many AF points are on Hasselblad or Mamiya medium format? Check out the movie War Photographer (2001) where one of the best photojournalists was using the Canon 1N which had a whopping 5 focus points. I doubt he used any other than the center. And every Leica shooter is a center-point only user because that's where the focus patch is. So I don't think the 6D is at all bad with 11 AF points only one of which is cross type.
About the ergonomics -- Canon has superb ergonomics at all price levels. You can use the "consumer" label, but the ergonomics of the 6D are just fine for that price. Someone who is so advanced and demanding that they need "pro" ergonomics can step up to the 5D3 or 1DX.
ISO1600 wrote: When the 5DII came out, it was revolutionary (video), but outshined in EVERY other area just about, by the D700.
Now the 6D is the lightest FF DSLR, with built-in wifi/gps, and awesome low light "single point" AF- but technically it is outdone in most areas by the D600.
Had it not been for D600's oily sensor problems, mixed bag of build quality/feel, and new generation nikon control layout, I would have gone with the D600 over the 6D.
Overall, I'm very happy with it. It is an easy camera to use, with an amazing sensor.
The highlighted sentens is not true in my opinion.
D700 was and still is an excellent camera. I thought about purchasing it instead of the "coming" 5D II.
A nice Nikon guy told me to wait for it. He was waiting for D700 (FF) since 5D appeared. I waited for two months and was happy I did not purchase the D700 (I do not do video).
I shot Weddings with a collegue (D700) who is an excellent photographer. But the 5D II gave us more hits in focus, using center point only, than D700s focus system. And better IQ of course (D700 was same on pixel level but at half resolution only) and more natural skin colors, too.
This has changed now. Nikon is on par or even better (in sensor technologie). But imo it is marginal.
Ralph, I'm not completely sure you interpreted my statement how I intended, or I may be misinterpreting your interpretation... lol
The D700 was and still is an outstanding camera, in my opinion. If it had even a crappy implementation of video, I'd still have both of mine haha. I LOVED my D700's. The mythical "D700S" was my dream that never happened.
D700 has a great focus system, great meter, great sensor. I think anywhere but the lower ISO's, the D700 is a more flexible sensor.
dhphoto wrote:
The popup flash is also an external flash commander on the 7D and presumably would have been on a 6D too, so it's not just about the flash itself
The D600 has one. The 6D doesn't. Nikon win.
For my use the popup flash is a big negative. As a landscape shooter I very frequently use the superb Canon 17 TSE and 24 TSE II lenses. For Canon APS bodies with pop up flash, the front overhang of the flash above the lens, bumps into the shift knobs when rotating the lens to adjust alignment of tilt and shift axis. I would be forced to use the smaller adjustment knobs. Other times the overhang of the flash hide access of the shift lock and adjustment knobs. http://www.dpreview.com/lensreviews/canon_24_3p5_tse_c10/2
The same problem is seen with Nikon PC lenses and Nikon bodies with pop up flash with the result being loss of lens function.
I have a basic flash gun when I need it (not very often) and the loss of TSE function would be a huge negative to me, so the priority is No Popup Flash!
Mike K
dhphoto wrote:
I'll say it yet again. I'm not talking about enthusiasts who frequent photo websites and use tilt/shift lenses.
I'm talking about ordinary people who aren't photographers who might be upgrading from rebels or P&S's.
For them a popup flash might be a selling point.
For you it clearly isn't.
I agree with this. The P&S and rebel crowd is used to having a built-in flash. Nikon having one on the D600 would seem like a plus to me. I for one would have zero use for a built-in flash, but then I don't belong in the target market.
dhphoto wrote:
I'll say it yet again. I'm not talking about enthusiasts who frequent photo websites and use tilt/shift lenses.
I'm talking about ordinary people who aren't photographers who might be upgrading from rebels or P&S's.
For them a popup flash might be a selling point.
For you it clearly isn't.
I think the point being made is who are these people who are such amateurs they know nothing about flashes or lenses but somehow know about the benefits of full frame vs. crop sensors and would willing pay $2000 for something they know nothing about?
if you are spending that kind of money on something you know nothing about then you have too much money and if you didn't learn anything from the previous camera that you would be upgrading from then what would be the point in the upgrade?
neil_johnson wrote:
I think the point being made is who are these people who are such amateurs they know nothing about flashes or lenses but somehow know about the benefits of full frame vs. crop sensors and would willing pay $2000 for something they know nothing about?
if you are spending that kind of money on something you know nothing about then you have too much money and if you didn't learn anything from the previous camera that you would be upgrading from then what would be the point in the upgrade?
I think you just described the majority of people on this forum.
Mike K wrote:
For my use the popup flash is a big negative. As a landscape shooter I very frequently use the superb Canon 17 TSE and 24 TSE II lenses. For Canon APS bodies with pop up flash, the front overhang of the flash above the lens, bumps into the shift knobs when rotating the lens to adjust alignment of tilt and shift axis. I would be forced to use the smaller adjustment knobs. Other times the overhang of the flash hide access of the shift lock and adjustment knobs.
Good point. So if you were looking for a full frame camera, the 6D is going to meet your needs better than the D600. It shows that having a built-in flash is not necessarily a benefit, not necessarily a plus for the photographer. Canon and Nikon know that whatever design decisions they make, they will win some customers and lose some customers. This is the manufacturers' dilemma: they will never make the ideal camera and they will never please everyone. There will always be potential customers who wished they made something different, and pretty much every decision will cost them some customers. Their best strategy is to make a broad and varied product line to meet a broad range of photographic needs and applications, and to create some differentiation between their products and those of their competitors.
zlatko wrote:
Good point. So if you were looking for a full frame camera, the 6D is going to meet your needs better than the D600. It shows that having a built-in flash is not necessarily a benefit, not necessarily a plus for the photographer. Canon and Nikon know that whatever design decisions they make, they will win some customers and lose some customers. This is the manufacturers' dilemma: they will never make the ideal camera and they will never please everyone. There will always be potential customers who wished they made something different, and pretty much every decision will cost them some customers. Their best strategy is to make a broad and varied product line to meet a broad range of photographic needs and applications, and to create some differentiation between their products and those of their competitors....Show more →
Precisely. A tiny 90EX flash that can be popped onto the 6D whenever needed is a far better implementation. I learned this from my Oly OM-D experience.
thw2 wrote:
Precisely. A tiny 90EX flash that can be popped onto the 6D whenever needed is a far better implementation. I learned this from my Oly OM-D experience.
hmm, I don't understand why including a pop-up flash in a body would ever a bad decision, unless the flash adds undue mass or weight to the body.
snapsy wrote:
hmm, I don't understand why including a pop-up flash in a body would ever a bad decision, unless the flash adds undue mass or weight to the body.
Didnt nikon doing this result in a weak hotshoe on the d700? That I guess is a design/production issue.
Also cameras with built in flashes tend to ave problems with tilt shift movements.
Being said so, I use mainly 5D II now, but 10D still being used.