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Archive 2013 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up
  
 
dhphoto
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p.3 #1 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


zlatko wrote:
There are plenty of cameras with built-in flash, but as photographers get more advanced, built-in flash is just not a priority.



Well there are full frame Nikons with a built-in flash but there are no Canon full frame cameras with a built in flash.

Clearly by your reckoning all the Canon users are more 'advanced'. But what about the ones that aren't? They just go and buy Nikons then.




Feb 13, 2013 at 04:08 PM
Johnny B Goode
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p.3 #2 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


I would have gladly given up 2 card slots, 1/8000 shutter speed, a couple MP, 100% view finder and a fancy AF for weather sealing. Why they didn't weather seal a camera that would otherwise be MY ideal travel camera is beyond me.


Feb 13, 2013 at 04:21 PM
dhphoto
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p.3 #3 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


Johnny B Goode wrote:
I would have gladly given up 2 card slots, 1/8000 shutter speed, a couple MP, 100% view finder and a fancy AF for weather sealing. Why they didn't weather seal a camera that would otherwise be MY ideal travel camera is beyond me.


There is 180g difference between the 5D3 and the 6D, that is 6 ounces. Hardly a deal-breaker for travel.

Why not just get a 5D3?



Feb 13, 2013 at 04:25 PM
paulfeng
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p.3 #4 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


zlatko wrote:
I agree. Some people only see the negative. For them, the glass is always half empty.


Really? (underling added.)

Oh wait, you're not talking about me.

I think it is possible to appreciate, simultaneously, that:

1. The 6D represents a significant improvement over, and better value than the 5D2 (although I submit that the proper basis for comparison is what the market offers now, not 4.5 years ago... if you are considering buying a house, do you compare with what the house sold for back then, or what is offered down the street today?)

2. Certain shortcomings may represent dealbreakers for a potential buyer. Speaking for myself only and my potential use, there's a very good chance I buy a 6D if the AF system were a bit better - maybe 60D level, with the points spread out to cover a similar proportion of a full frame.



Feb 13, 2013 at 04:29 PM
neil_johnson
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p.3 #5 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


dhphoto wrote:
Yes, I know that and you know that but Canon's target market for the 6D, those coming from a crop camera to full frame will inevitably have that as one of the things they would like to see and the D600 has it.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear

If Canon's target market for the 6D really is the serious amateur upgrader then this is one trick Canon missed IMHO


I believe I am Canon's target market for this camera, a relative amateur coming from an older crop sensor looking to upgrade to full frame but not willing to shell out $3000+ for a 5DIII.

I will say though that I've used the popup flash perhaps 5 times since I've owned my camera and have made the investment in off camera flash. Its more of a comparison note with the D600 rather than an actual need. Sure there are times where it may be needed in a pinch but the high iso, low light quality probably negates much of that need. I would think that many people who are spending $2000 on this camera would already have some type of flash unit if that was how they typically shoot. They would have noticed how handicapped the onboard flash is long ago.

I am still mulling the 6D and its shortcomings or pulling the trigger on a 5DIII, even if it exceeds what I want to pay by a decent amount. I normally buy what I want rather than sacrificing whether its with clothing, cars, furniture or cameras and this case is the same but cost is a factor. I'd hate to regret a purchase in the future since being an amateur I don't buy new bodies every couple years, for me they have to last a long time and at this point I want a body that can grow with me.



Feb 13, 2013 at 04:32 PM
dhphoto
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p.3 #6 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


neil_johnson wrote:
I believe I am Canon's target market for this camera, a relative amateur coming from an older crop sensor looking to upgrade to full frame but not willing to shell out $3000+ for a 5DIII.

I will say though that I've used the popup flash perhaps 5 times since I've owned my camera and have made the investment in off camera flash. Its more of a comparison note with the D600 rather than an actual need. Sure there are times where it may be needed in a pinch but the high iso, low light quality probably negates much of that
...Show more

I have two comments:

The popup flash is also an external flash commander on the 7D and presumably would have been on a 6D too, so it's not just about the flash itself

The D600 has one. The 6D doesn't. Nikon win.

By the way, the 5D3 is a simply awesomely good camera, and I have 8 different dslr's right now, the 5D3 is the best.



Feb 13, 2013 at 04:37 PM
Daniel Smith
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p.3 #7 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


For those used to shooting film going to a full frame body makes sense. That this camera has been shown up by Nikon's D600 has to have Canon frustrated.

Very nice images but in comparison to the competition Canon is behind in features many will look for.



Feb 13, 2013 at 04:41 PM
zlatko
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p.3 #8 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


dhphoto wrote:
Well there are full frame Nikons with a built-in flash but there are no Canon full frame cameras with a built in flash.

Clearly by your reckoning all the Canon users are more 'advanced'. But what about the ones that aren't? They just go and buy Nikons then.


That's not my reckoning at all. You're really twisting my words.



Feb 13, 2013 at 04:52 PM
Ulan
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p.3 #9 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


Not everything is about specs and price, but also reliability ! Do you agree ?


Feb 13, 2013 at 04:57 PM
zlatko
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p.3 #10 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


neil_johnson wrote:
I will say though that I've used the popup flash perhaps 5 times since I've owned my camera and have made the investment in off camera flash. Its more of a comparison note with the D600 rather than an actual need. Sure there are times where it may be needed in a pinch but the high iso, low light quality probably negates much of that need. I would think that many people who are spending $2000 on this camera would already have some type of flash unit if that was how they typically shoot. They would have noticed how handicapped
...Show more

I agree fully -- that explains my point better than I did. I can't remember the last time I used built-in flash on a DSLR. Maybe 10-12 years ago -- just to try it? It looks awful. So not having it is not a deal-breaker on a $2,000 camera, especially a camera with fantastic low-light performance. So Nikon having it on the D600 is not really a big attraction or value. Why does Nikon include it? I don't know.



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:01 PM
 

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dhphoto
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p.3 #11 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


zlatko wrote:
That's not my reckoning at all. You're really twisting my words.


The one comment I have read and heard more than any other about the 6D is that it should have had a flash/remote commander. These comments are all over the web.

I have no interest in buying a 6D I have other cameras but if I was a punter looking to upgrade my 40D or whatever and I wasn't an enthusiast I'd want a flash that I didn't have to carry around. Most people just want a camera and lens, not accessories to cart about. These are not enthusiasts, just ordinary users.



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:03 PM
dhphoto
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p.3 #12 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


zlatko wrote:
I agree fully -- that explains my point better than I did. I can't remember the last time I used built-in flash on a DSLR. Maybe 10-12 years ago -- just to try it? It looks awful. So not having it is not a deal-breaker on a $2,000 camera, especially a camera with fantastic low-light performance. So Nikon having it on the D600 is not really a big attraction or value. Why does Nikon include it? I don't know.


The built in flash is not just for low light. It's incredibly useful if you want a subtle fill-in on a bright day and it is the off-camera flash controller. Just because you don't need it doesn't make it the same for everyone



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:06 PM
Gochugogi
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p.3 #13 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


zlatko wrote:
I agree fully -- that explains my point better than I did. I can't remember the last time I used built-in flash on a DSLR. Maybe 10-12 years ago -- just to try it? It looks awful. So not having it is not a deal-breaker on a $2,000 camera, especially a camera with fantastic low-light performance. So Nikon having it on the D600 is not really a big attraction or value. Why does Nikon include it? I don't know.


I'd love to have a popup. While I mainly shoot with natural light it is still great to have for triggering an off-shoe E-TTL slave. Without one I have to remember to carry around yet one more thing (ST-E2).



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:07 PM
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p.3 #14 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


dhphoto wrote:
The popup flash is also an external flash commander on the 7D and presumably would have been on a 6D too, so it's not just about the flash itself

The D600 has one. The 6D doesn't. Nikon win.

By the way, the 5D3 is a simply awesomely good camera, and I have 8 different dslr's right now, the 5D3 is the best.


I had a 60D but hardly ever used the pop-up flash. Camera has since been replaced by Olympus OM-D which does not have a pop-up flash. But the OM-D comes with a tiny flash that can be attached when necessary.

I had a 5D3 but sold it because of its weight. Replaced it with a 6D 24-105 kit. Couldn't be happier. Got myself a 90EX flash... following my OM-D set-up.

Love the 6D + OM-D combo. Each system has its strengths and weaknesses.




Feb 13, 2013 at 05:09 PM
ben egbert
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p.3 #15 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


StillFingerz wrote:
Just read the review, it touched on both strengths and clear weaknesses when compared to the latest n greatest...but it's more of 'what have you done for me lately' BS, completely ignoring previous Canon FF bodies of which the 5Dc and 5D2 were both ground breaking non pro bodies.

The new supposed 5fps standard...what a joke.

A slanted review, yes a bit, but nothing really surprising and not damning by any means. The RAW HDR and video quibbles can probably be fixed with firmware. The video moire issue already has a 3rd party fix.

For a light weight, low cost Entry Level
...Show more

As a 1DSm3 owner, I have some ideas about some of this. I had I think 45 AF points, I used the center. 11 is plenty if the center if accurate. Much more important is a good live view implementation.

I think my burst rate was lower, and it was plenty and I did BIF. The buffer was the real limit.

I still have not seen anyones ISO3200 I would use. My 1DS-m3 was usable with lots of nr at 1600 and not much different than my 5d3 if I did not have to crop. Cropping is what kills high iso. And full size printing is the real test of iso performance not web presentation.

I have no idea why jpg is even an option. I skip all the jpg sections of a review. I would like to see jpg and sRGB and 8 bit die.

Clean low iso image quality is great.

Never understood what people care about out of camera color. You fix color in post, ideally with a camera profile.

Full frame is important to enable good UWA lenses.



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:17 PM
Gunzorro
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p.3 #16 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


I'm not saying a built in flash isn't handy -- it is. I've used it numerous times on my 60D (and lots of flash fill on the G10). But to design the flash on top of the much larger prism of full frame is quite a feat! You say: Nikon does it! Well, yes they do, and have a large honking upper assembly to show for it. So what? IIRC, the Nikon housing interferes with PC lens movement. That would be a solid red flag for me -- not being about to use 100% of the OEM lenses. I am particularly fond of TS-E lenses, owning three.

There's always a trade-off for features/price/size.

Personally, I think the flash and AF points are minor issues compared to the black eye Nikon has gotten on reliability and splatters on the sensor. Nothing is perfect. Reliability counts for a lot.



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:21 PM
zlatko
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p.3 #17 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


dhphoto wrote:
The built in flash is not just for low light. It's incredibly useful if you want a subtle fill-in on a bright day and it is the off-camera flash controller. Just because you don't need it doesn't make it the same for everyone


You're right -- some people use the built-in flash, for fill-in, for off-camera flash control, etc. Happily there are many cameras that offer this convenience. If the need to have built-in flash on their full-frame camera drives someone to Nikon ... well, then it must be very important to them.



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:24 PM
zlatko
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p.3 #18 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


Gunzorro wrote:
Personally, I think the flash and AF points are minor issues compared to the black eye Nikon has gotten on reliability and splatters on the sensor. Nothing is perfect. Reliability counts for a lot.


Nikon included a built-in flash on the D700 -- but got another black eye for reliability due to the weak hot shoe right next to it. I remember hearing regular complaints from D700 users about the failing hot shoe.



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:29 PM
dhphoto
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p.3 #19 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


thw2 wrote:
I had a 60D but hardly ever used the pop-up flash. Camera has since been replaced by Olympus OM-D which does not have a pop-up flash. But the OM-D comes with a tiny flash that can be attached when necessary.



Yes, but you're not the 'average' user, you're on a photo site talking about gear.

You aren't Joe from Minneapolis, Manchester or Madrid who just wants to buy a camera to photograph his kids and wants an upgrade to his Rebel or P&S. He wants a convenient onboard flash, he doesn't care about harsh shadows, his mate at work has told him to go full frame as the pics will be better and he's making his choice - he will most likely pick the one that most closely resembles the features on his Rebel, or P&S.

I KNOW most more experienced users won't use the pop-up flash much. That was never my point.



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:48 PM
neil_johnson
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p.3 #20 · DP Review's 6D Review Is Up


Or speedlight e90x I suppose as a controller but its still one more thing (as small as it is).

From what I've read other than the wifi and gps the space was used to also house the pentaprism and I doubt that is a tradeoff someone would want for flash. Guess its a matter of tradeoffs in a compact full frame camera.



Feb 13, 2013 at 05:59 PM
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