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rob0225
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p.2 #1 · International Software Pricing

But aren't companies allowed to charge what they want for a product? Why do they have to charge the same price they do in one country over the other? It's obvious they can have the higher price-point otherwise people wouldn't buy it.

I don't know the details of the reasoning they lowered the price in Australia but I don't agree with them being pressured to charge a certain price.

How would you feel if someone told you, you have to charge a lower rate for your photography services?

I don't mean to turn this into a political discussion...I just have serious reservations against people being forced to sell a product at a certain price....where does it stop? I suspect they lowered the price in Australia to subvert a negative PR incident more then anything else.

Feb 17, 2013 at 06:48 PM

15Bit
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p.2 #2 · International Software Pricing

rob0225 wrote:
But aren't companies allowed to charge what they want for a product? Why do they have to charge the same price they do in one country over the other? It's obvious they can have the higher price-point otherwise people wouldn't buy it.

I don't know the details of the reasoning they lowered the price in Australia but I don't agree with them being pressured to charge a certain price.

How would you feel if someone told you, you have to charge a lower rate for your photography services?

I don't mean to turn this into a political discussion...I just have serious reservations against people being forced to sell a product at a certain price....where does it stop? I suspect they lowered the price in Australia to subvert a negative PR incident more then anything else.

I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone actually offered to pay for my photography services

But the point is valid, and i would be likely unhappy. I will pose to you though - How would you feel if you wanted to order a print from a photographer that was listed on his/her website as $700 plus taxes and shipping within Canada, but $1200 plus taxes and shipping if you live in the US? Its the same print, packaged the same way. You'd feel like you are being screwed, right?

As for companies being forced to sell a product at a certain price. I agree that it is in most cases unfair to dictate that a company sells a product at a certain price. But we are not talking about that - we are discussing fairness in pricing: The idea that everyone pays the same (fair) price. An extreme example for sure, but how about if you walked into a shop and got told you had to pay 30% extra for something because you are black/hispanic/whatever? Rules exist to ensure that doesn't happen, don't they?

It is relevant to point out that under certain circumstances quite strict rules can be applied to companies and their pricing and conduct. In cases where market dominance of sorts exists (which arguably does for some Adobe products), rules *do* exist to ensure that that market dominance is not exploited to the detriment of customers. Intel and Microsoft have both fallen foul of the EU in this regard and paid big fines. My feeling is that Adobe caved in Australia to avoid a similar fate, and to try to avoid a long and costly legal process that would open up an embarrassing and indefensible business strategy for public viewing.

Feb 17, 2013 at 09:10 PM

rob0225
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p.2 #3 · International Software Pricing

15Bit wrote:

I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone actually offered to pay for my photography services

But the point is valid, and i would be likely unhappy. I will pose to you though - How would you feel if you wanted to order a print from a photographer that was listed on his/her website as $700 plus taxes and shipping within Canada, but $1200 plus taxes and shipping if you live in the US? Its the same print, packaged the same way. You'd feel like you are being screwed, right?

Yep..I would not be happy, but that's the world we live in..different countries, different social norms and different business climates. Where does it stop? Where does one stop applying this rationale? Software? Hardware? Cars? Clothing? Liquor?

I can buy a Chevy Corvette here in the US much much cheaper then you can in Norway, using this reasoning, it's not fair and you should be able to pay the same price.

You see it's a slippery slope.

15Bit wrote:
As for companies being forced to sell a product at a certain price. I agree that it is in most cases unfair to dictate that a company sells a product at a certain price. But we are not talking about that - we are discussing fairness in pricing: The idea that everyone pays the same (fair) price. An extreme example for sure, but how about if you walked into a shop and got told you had to pay 30% extra for something because you are black? Rules exist to ensure that doesn't happen, don't they?

A very extreme example and not comparable in this case. The price isn't more expensive because the person is a certain skin color or nationality. It's because of the taxes and duties placed against those products because of that countries business practices and tax structure.

Feb 17, 2013 at 09:24 PM

Lars Johnsson
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p.2 #4 · International Software Pricing

rob0225 wrote:
15Bit wrote:

I'd be somewhat surprised if anyone actually offered to pay for my photography services

But the point is valid, and i would be likely unhappy. I will pose to you though - How would you feel if you wanted to order a print from a photographer that was listed on his/her website as $700 plus taxes and shipping within Canada, but $1200 plus taxes and shipping if you live in the US? Its the same print, packaged the same way. You'd feel like you are being screwed, right?

Yep..I would not be happy, but that's the world we live in..different countries, different social norms and different business climates. Where does it stop? Where does one stop applying this rationale? Software? Hardware? Cars? Clothing? Liquor?

I can buy a Chevy Corvette here in the US much much cheaper then you can in Norway, using this reasoning, it's not fair and you should be able to pay the same price.

You see it's a slippery slope.

15Bit wrote:
As for companies being forced to sell a product at a certain price. I agree that it is in most cases unfair to dictate that a company sells a product at a certain price. But we are not talking about that - we are discussing fairness in pricing: The idea that everyone pays the same (fair) price. An extreme example for sure, but how about if you walked into a shop and got told you had to pay 30% extra for something because you are black? Rules exist to ensure that doesn't happen, don't they?

A very extreme example and not comparable in this case. The price isn't more expensive because the person is a certain skin color or nationality. It's because of the taxes and duties placed against those products because of that countries business practices and tax structure.

No it was not about buying hardware in different countries. It was about downloading a software from the same server. So it's the same shop they buy from. And if you are from Norway or the US you pay the same price when buying that Chevy Corvette in the same shop

Feb 18, 2013 at 01:28 AM

rob0225
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p.2 #5 · International Software Pricing

Lars Johnsson wrote:

No it was not about buying hardware in different countries. It was about downloading a software from the same server. So it's the same shop they buy from. And if you are from Norway or the US you pay the same price when buying that Chevy Corvette in the same shop

Feb 18, 2013 at 01:36 AM

Lars Johnsson
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p.2 #6 · International Software Pricing

rob0225 wrote:
Lars Johnsson wrote:

No it was not about buying hardware in different countries. It was about downloading a software from the same server. So it's the same shop they buy from. And if you are from Norway or the US you pay the same price when buying that Chevy Corvette in the same shop

You don't get it...its not about where the server is located that it's downloaded from...it's where the purchase takes place...that is what determines the cost and associated taxes and duties.

And your skewing the example. The point being when buying something in two separate countries there are different tax rates, import duties and other associated costs that the vendor has to take into account when setting pricing.

When I download as an sample the the plugins from Nik software in the USA. It's not like they pay the 25% VAT or tax that we have in Sweden. And when I live in Thailand and download it to Thailand. They still want me to pay the price they have in Sweden Europe. Even if I don't stay there or download it to those countries. It's just their business model of making more money.
Most software companies don't care what country you download it to. It's the citizenship of the buyer they like to know. Or sometimes what country the credit card that you pay with is issued from. So in most cases it's NOT from where the purchases takes place.
Even if I stay in the USA and download it to USA like you. I still have to pay the European price if I pay with an European credit card

Feb 18, 2013 at 03:05 AM

rob0225
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p.2 #7 · International Software Pricing

Lars Johnsson wrote:

When I download as an sample the the plugins from Nik software in the USA. It's not like they pay the 25% VAT or tax that we have in Sweden. And when I live in Thailand and download it to Thailand. They still want me to pay the price they have in Sweden Europe. Even if I don't stay there or download it to those countries. It's just their business model of making more money.
Most software companies don't care what country you download it to. It's the citizenship of the buyer they like to know. Or sometimes what country the credit card that you pay with is issued from. So in most cases it's NOT from where the purchases takes place.

That's where your wrong. They do have to register and collect the VAT to be paid to the govt. When you download from Thailand do you use your Swedish address when you purchase?

I promise you they are paying the VAT collected in your purchase. A global company like Adobe is not going to try and go around the system. Quite frankly it doesn't matter to them it's not coming out of their bottom line, its being passed on to the consumer, they just have to do the administrative work to collect and remit to the tax authority.

Anyway...I'm done with this topic, it's just going in circles.

Feb 18, 2013 at 03:15 AM

Lars Johnsson
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p.2 #8 · International Software Pricing

rob0225 wrote:
Lars Johnsson wrote:

When I download as an sample the the plugins from Nik software in the USA. It's not like they pay the 25% VAT or tax that we have in Sweden. And when I live in Thailand and download it to Thailand. They still want me to pay the price they have in Sweden Europe. Even if I don't stay there or download it to those countries. It's just their business model of making more money.
Most software companies don't care what country you download it to. It's the citizenship of the buyer they like to know. Or sometimes what country the credit card that you pay with is issued from. So in most cases it's NOT from where the purchases takes place.

That's where your wrong. They do have to register and collect the VAT to be paid to the govt. When you download from Thailand do you use your Swedish address when you purchase?

I promise you they are paying the VAT collected in your purchase. A global company like Adobe is not going to try and go around the system. Quite frankly it doesn't matter to them it's not coming out of their bottom line, its being passed on to the consumer, they just have to do the administrative work to collect and remit to the tax authority.

Anyway...I'm done with this topic, it's just going in circles.

You are wrong. And when buying from Thailand I give them my address in Bangkok. And I didn't wrote Adobe. They have shops in about every country.
Do you really belive they send tax and VAT to Sweden when I buy from another continent

Feb 18, 2013 at 03:21 AM

15Bit
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p.2 #9 · International Software Pricing

rob0225 wrote:
Anyway...I'm done with this topic, it's just going in circles.

Unfortunately so, though perhaps inevitably. The crux seems to be that you believe that the 70% price difference between Photoshop in the US and in Norway is explainable via taxes and duties. We don't, and we probably aren't going to bridge that gap

It was a pleasant discussion though.

Feb 18, 2013 at 06:35 AM

Hammy
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p.2 #10 · International Software Pricing

Lars Johnsson wrote: They have shops in about every country.
Do you really belive they send tax and VAT to Sweden when I buy from another continent

That's how it is in the states. If we have a 'physical presence' in another state where we do business, then we collect and pay the local taxes to that state.
Traveling internationally on business, when I bring 3000 DVD's into a country for distribution, I pay tax/VAT on them before they can clear customs.

States and countries are getting tighter and more strict on goods crossing borders where there has been lax regulations on taxation. In the states, it's called a "Sales and Use" tax. So they can (and do) charge tax even on movie rentals - every time it rents. After about 12 people rent that movie, there has been more tax paid on it than the cost of the DVD.

Feb 18, 2013 at 04:14 PM

Lars Johnsson
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p.2 #11 · International Software Pricing

Lars Johnsson wrote: They have shops in about every country.
Do you really belive they send tax and VAT to Sweden when I buy from another continent

Feb 18, 2013 at 05:44 PM

Hammy
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p.2 #12 · International Software Pricing

Lars Johnsson wrote:
Lars Johnsson wrote: They have shops in about every country.
Do you really belive they send tax and VAT to Sweden when I buy from another continent

Hammy wrote:
That's how it is in the states. If we have a 'physical presence' in another state where we do business, then we collect and pay the local taxes to that state.
Traveling internationally on business, when I bring 3000 DVD's into a country for distribution, I pay tax/VAT on them before they can clear customs.

States and countries are getting tighter and more strict on goods crossing borders where there has been lax regulations on taxation. In the states, it's called a "Sales and Use" tax. So they can (and do) charge tax even on movie rentals - every time it rents. After about 12 people rent that movie, there has been more tax paid on it than the cost of the DVD.

If you gonna quote, use my full post and don't leave out the important stuff in it. This is my post:

"You are wrong. And when buying from Thailand I give them my address in Bangkok. And I didn't wrote Adobe. They have shops in about every country.
Do you really belive they send tax and VAT to Sweden when I buy from another continent "

And this is not how it is in the States. If I live in Bangkok then I don't have any physical presence in Sweden. Or download to Sweden. And the company don't have to pay any tax or VAT to Sweden. It's not about what country I was born in. It's about what country I live in and have a physical presence in that matter

Do you really belive a person that live in Thailand. And download software from a company in the USA to his home in Thailand. Have to pay tax or VAT to Sweden. Or the company have to pay tax and VAT to Sweden

There is your full quote.

I'm not talking about YOU having a physical presence in the other country, but rather the COMPANY doing business - having a physical presence in the country.

When we setup our computers to sell and deliver prints at events, we registered with the state to collect and pay that state's sales tax.
Even afterwards, with residual internet sales, we still collect and pay tax to that state for orders delivered to that state.

So, as a BUSINESS, if they had a physical presence: satellite office, phone support staff, lawyers, etc... then they are liable for operating a business in that state/country and therefore pay taxes.

Therefore, going back to your post - the one that I highlighted the relative parts:
Lars Johnsson wrote: They have shops in about every country.
Do you really belive they send tax and VAT to Sweden when I buy from another continent

specifically:
They have shops in about every country.
sounds like they have a physical presence and therefore supposed to collect tax/VAT

My whole point is that just because we are outside of a boundary and transfering digitial information, doesn't mean that we are free and clear of any taxes, VAT or duty on the tangible goods being downloaded. Governments are a business (not an efficient one), and they want their share.

Feb 19, 2013 at 02:04 AM

Lars Johnsson
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p.2 #13 · International Software Pricing

@ Hammy, you still not get it. And you still cut away the important part from the quote. That I live and buy it from Bangkok.

When I live in Thailand. And download it to Thailand (from USA). Why should I pay Europan (Swedish) taxes and VAT

Feb 19, 2013 at 11:38 AM

Sven Jeppesen
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p.2 #14 · International Software Pricing

Yes the prices when downloading to Europe or outside the USA is a joke. And the companies don't pay any VAT/tax to those countries like a ew people claim here. I will give you another sample.
I bought both the Niks plugin collection and the onOne software Perfect Photo suite. The two most well known plugin companies for Photoshop and Lightroom. both are American companies selling to Europe. the Niks software had a much higher price in Europe than in the USA. But the onOne software was exactly the same price in Europe and USA.
And that shows those high European prices are just a way of making money. And have nothing to do with paying taxes/VAT to the goverments in Europe. Or do some people here really belive that only a few companies have to pay taxes and VAT to those Goverments?

Feb 20, 2013 at 02:14 AM

WebDog
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p.2 #15 · International Software Pricing

I can accept that a localized version of the software is somewhat more expensive.... Still looking at Adobe, the price even if you consider taxes (not sure about duies for s/w) is way higher for us here in EU.

And often you find super deals on upgrades that are only available for US/NA... leaving use here in EU to pay through the nose

So I ended up not using Adobe... Only way to get the prices to level is to vote with your wallet!

Feb 20, 2013 at 04:17 PM

Sven Jeppesen
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p.2 #16 · International Software Pricing

Feb 22, 2013 at 03:55 AM

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