charles.K wrote:
Ron, thank you for this interesting research!!! Hopefully the processor will not date too quickly
Yes, completely agree, with the new evolution of great FF sensors, manufacturers will need to engineer the system to integrate with the decades of collected RF lenses. Of course Leica is the only player with the vested interest, but should Sony, or whoever get the design to work, it will open the market dramatically
They must do this in order to reveal true potential and advantage over SLR in WA range.
In fact, we have already has that (remember Sony 10-18, which bests SLR counterparts both IQ and size wise), but we can have more
If it is not possible to scroll around in LV that is a major let down but I'm not sure yet if it is a deal breaker for me. It is a future I use a lot on my Canon 5D Mrk II when doing tripod work so it is important but on the other hand the Leica M-system has so many other advantages, oh man now it got so much more complicated to decide.
For me at this point I now have a list of items that are pushing toward not making the investment in the M240. My list consists of:
1) Price
2) Need for EVF for using my Leica R glass. This could be a major obstacle in loading the camera in and taking it out of camera bag or backpack and carrying the camera with the EVF attached to the camera.
3) Need for R to M adapter, but I would need an adapter or Leitax my R lenses at this point for pretty much any system.
4) Inability to move (scroll) the magnified area of the EVF (and I presume the LCD screen) for the purpose of focus points.
5) Cable release shutter release only for long exposures (no electronic release at least unless you have the multifunction grip and I am not sure if even with the grip this is an option).
6) Longest Bulb setting of 60 seconds for the camera. This greatly limits my use of the camera for long exposures for example with ND filters. This may require that I carry a second camera like my Fuji X-E1 if the potential existed.
7) Must remove the bottom plate or grip to access the camera battery and Memory card. This will prove to be extremely inconvenient for a tripod mounted camera.
8) For flash usage with EVF need the special Multifunction Grip and accessories to add a 2nd hot shoe.
naturephoto1 wrote:
For me at this point I now have a list of items that are pushing toward not making the investment in the M240. My list consists of:
1) Price
2) Need for EVF for using my Leica R glass. This could be a major obstacle in loading the camera in and taking it out of camera bag or backpack and carrying the camera with the EVF attached to the camera.
3) Need for R to M adapter, but I would need an adapter or Leitax my R lenses at this point for pretty much any system.
4) Inability to move (scroll) the magnified area of the EVF (and I presume the LCD screen) for the purpose of focus points.
5) Cable release shutter release only for long exposures (no electronic release at least unless you have the multifunction grip and I am not sure if even with the grip this is an option).
6) Longest Bulb setting of 60 seconds for the camera. This greatly limits my use of the camera for long exposures for example with ND filters. This may require that I carry a second camera like my Fuji X-E1 if the potential existed.
7) Must remove the bottom plate or grip to access the camera battery and Memory card. This will prove to be extremely inconvenient for a tripod mounted camera.
8) For flash usage with EVF need the special Multifunction Grip and accessories to add a 2nd hot shoe.
1) Indeed a heafty price, trough I expected it to be much higher (looking at the increase between the M8, M8.2, M9 and later the M9P.
5) With my M9P I can use the cable release for normal shutter speeds also. Not only bulb. It is all mechanical indeed. No multiple release stuff ect.
7) I still don't get why leica changed the base plate. With the M8/ M9 it worked perfect. Only reason I can think of is with those heavy R lenses, the bottom plate wasn't strong enough any more.
8) Beside price I don't really think this is a problem. The camera is big already with the flash and EVF on it.
Also with those big R lenses, I think u really want a grip after some time. The basic M body is great with small M lenses, but I think is hard to hold with really front heavy lenses. The 90 summicron-M AA is about what I think is comfortable. The 50 nocti 0,95 is to much already.
Looking at all the point u mention I really get the feeling the M isn't optimal for what U wanna use if for.
There are so many camera's out there which do have all the options U want like long shutterspeeds, good cablereleases, no need for expensive add ons ect.
Sure u have a wide selection of R lenses, but with the new M those will be quite popular and easy to sell.
I think for the cash u safe from not getting a M240 and earn with selling U can buy a great amount of Nikon lenses or canon lenses with a full frame body attached.
As much as I like leica, for pure landscape work I would pick a 6D or 5D with the canons TS-E's and some longer lenses, or even some Zeiss/ leica R's.
Somehow I suspect Rich isn't inclined to sell his R lenses.
But I agree with some of your points. The question is what, if any advantage does the M offer R lens users over something like a D600/800/6D/5D series camera? I guess there are mirror clearance issues for certain lenses, as well as the hassle of Leitaxing? The last point I think is relevant for Rich because it seems he still uses his R film bodies. If he was 100% digital, then maybe not so complicated.
For landscape work I think there is some strength to using the M system, particularly the Leica w/a lenses. I'm really blown away by the 21/3.4, and it's much, much smaller than a ZE/ZF 21/2.8. But that assumes one already has, or intends to get M lenses. And the M is the only FF platform that currently allows use of M and SLR lenses, so you really do get a huge selection from which to cherry pick the best lenses for your needs (BTW, IMO the Sony VG900 doesn't count due to the terrible edge smearing with RF lenses).
Rich - I can't find any reference to an electronic cable release in the somewhat spartan information about the multifunction grip. This is also something I feel is missing. They were able to add a pc sync socket and USB, etc... why not an electronic release? The only workaround I can think of is to connect a laptop/tablet via USB and control the camera from it, assuming the Leica software allows you to trigger the camera from the device. But it's an impractical solution.
Guys, don't mind me at this point. I guess I am one of the R users that is disappointed as to what Leica has offered us as the R solution. The R cameras offer everything that we need for film, but for digital we have to make lots of compromises. So, at least for now I will be using my R lenses on my Fuji X-E1 and wait.
rscheffler wrote:
Somehow I suspect Rich isn't inclined to sell his R lenses.
But I agree with some of your points. The question is what, if any advantage does the M offer R lens users over something like a D600/800/6D/5D series camera? I guess there are mirror clearance issues for certain lenses, as well as the hassle of Leitaxing? The last point I think is relevant for Rich because it seems he still uses his R film bodies. If he was 100% digital, then maybe not so complicated.
I believe that you can just use a simple adapter for Leica R to EOS, so something like the 6D seems like it would be a good choice, since Rich could just leave the adapter mounted on the camera body, and easily switch lenses between EOS and an R film body.
Rich, why not shoot one of the Canons this year, and then sell it for a marginal loss whenever a better option comes along? That little 6D will get you replaceable focusing screens, scrollable live view, and all of the usual electronic options.
philip_pj wrote:
Rich, I think the word solution needs quotation marks around it, as your above list makes a lot of sense.
Plilip,
I know. But that is what it has been termed even by Leica it seem.
If people have access to Facebook, you can see some of the kind of work that I do and understand. My latest work was done in Washington State last October with Lumix G1 and Canon G10 cameras. I need more which is why the I have the new Fuji even if it is for the interim or as a 2nd camera. I am still wanting a FF option.
douglasf13 wrote:
I believe that you can just use a simple adapter for Leica R to EOS, so something like the 6D seems like it would be a good choice, since Rich could just leave the adapter mounted on the camera body, and easily switch lenses between EOS and an R film body.
Rich, why not shoot one of the Canons this year, and then sell it for a marginal loss whenever a better option comes along? That little 6D will get you replaceable focusing screens, scrollable live view, and all of the usual electronic options.
Doug,
I know that this is an option, but there is the issue of dealing with the focusing with the lenses wide open and then closing them down to working aperture. Again, I do have the Fuji X-E1 at least for now.
I know that this is an option, but there is the issue of dealing with the focusing with the lenses wide open and then closing them down to working aperture. Again, I do have the Fuji X-E1 at least for now.
Rich
The A900's viewfinder may be a little brighter than the 6D (not sure,) but Tariq and I used to talk about how we rarely used stop down metering with the A900 and manual lenses. I'd just focus at shooting aperture and shoot. Of course, in situations where it is too dark, you can use the live view, which I didn't have on the A900.
The very limited implantation of LiveView kills my lust for this new M. When shooting landscape, I check other-than-center sharpness maybe 25-30% of the time, and not being able to zoom in would be a PITA. Somehow, I don't understand how Leica couldn't figure out how to get their new flagship to do what my Canon 40D did 5 years ago without fuss. Maybe it is their way of ensuring that Leica Ms get used "the right way" only (with RF)? Too bad for those who wanted to buy one for LiveView-intensive use (landscape, macro, R lenses...)
philber wrote:
The very limited implantation of LiveView kills my lust for this new M. When shooting landscape, I check other-than-center sharpness maybe 25-30% of the time, and not being able to zoom in would be a PITA. Somehow, I don't understand how Leica couldn't figure out how to get their new flagship to do what my Canon 40D did 5 years ago without fuss. Maybe it is their way of ensuring that Leica Ms get used "the right way" only (with RF)? Too bad for those who wanted to buy one for LiveView-intensive use (landscape, macro, R lenses...)
Are you serious? You can't zoom in Live View?
I guess I'm waiting for the FF NEX, supposed to come at the end of 2013 for sure (100% sure).
There is a new NEX-7 coming, it might be better in the corners, so I'll get that one in the meantime.
My NEX-7 is not really great with any of my wide lenses... Kind of regret getting it. 5N is still the best.
Sad I don't have any hopes Leica can make a good camera anymore...
Andrew, you can zoom in, but only in the center. You can't scroll around the zoomed-in image.
Philippe, I agree with your dismay. That said, I've been shooting some landscapes on the M9 with wide lenses and focus with the rangefinder is extremely accurate. But yeah, for macro or on-tripod work, off-center scrolling would be great.
snowboarder wrote:
Are you serious? You can't zoom in Live View?
I guess I'm waiting for the FF NEX, supposed to come at the end of 2013 for sure (100% sure).
There is a new NEX-7 coming, it might be better in the corners, so I'll get that one in the meantime.
My NEX-7 is not really great with any of my wide lenses... Kind of regret getting it. 5N is still the best.
Sad I don't have any hopes Leica can make a good camera anymore...
Funny I have very close connections at Sony and even they aren't sure it'll arrive in 2013. If a FF mirroess comes from Sony this year I hope you're ok with big AF retrofocus wide angles. You know M lenses have a distance and DOF scale yeah?
To imagine, people took perfectly well focused landscape images with the M9!? Must've been luck.
As has been said, you can zoom in LV, but only in the centre at this time.
Funny I have very close connections at Sony and even they aren't sure it'll arrive in 2013. If a FF mirroess comes from Sony this year I hope you're ok with big AF retrofocus wide angles. You know M lenses have a distance and DOF scale yeah?
Sony Alpha Rumors are reporting an announcement early in 2014 with a possible release mid-2014. SONY are supposed to have a working prototype already and it's COT technology for them, so it's certain that marketing has concerns about the viability of the camera and/or don't want it to interfere with sales of the RX1/NEX line.
The corners from the VG900 were also unworkable with M lenses which is another point of concern, if the same sensor was to be carried over.
So far as the new M is concerned, I wish it maintained the compact form of Leica's older film cameras or even smaller - say about the size of a NEX. Breaking the tradition of the frameline illumination window is sad and the EVF limitations cited here don't sound very promising either although they might possibly be fixable in firmware.
So what you are saying, Thrice, is that focusing by distance and DOF scale is the Leica-recommended solution for off-center sharpness for tripod landscape work? Duly noted! I have no doubt that it works with the M9 as well, then. Maybe Leica could have left all focusing to that method, which would have been compact, light, and cheap...
But that is what it has been termed even by Leica it seem. 