M240 Full Res Samples

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rscheffler
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p.17 #1 · M240 Full Res Samples

Since pretty much all of my paid photography involves photographing people, over the past couple years I've noticed the tendency for some black and dark blue fabrics to shift towards slight purple/magenta due to insufficient IR blocking by the M9.

It's also pretty difficult to guess which black fabrics will be cause for concern. While it seems synthetic materials are the primary problem, even within synthetics, there are some that are bad and others that are no problem. And it will also depend on light quality.

Because most of what I shoot is not extremely color critical, I can usually fix this very easily by the methods Boris mentioned. Tweaking the blue and purple hue slider is usually the most effective. If what should have been black but instead is purple and after the tweak takes on a slight deep blue tint, it's less objectionable than purple/magenta. Or, I'll selectively desaturate with the blue or purple sliders, but it will also depend greatly on the overall color scheme of the image. If there are a lot of other blues and purples in the scene, then this approach is not ideal. Fortunately this has rarely been an issue. Worse has been moire patterns provoked by certain fabric types.

It will be interesting to see if IR contamination can still be provoked with the M, since one would expect the cover glass to still be quite thin to avoid degrading edge resolution. One of Jono Slack's samples - the woman with the dog outside - really looked at first like it could have been because the woman's jacket had a telltale purple/magenta cast. But he said it's the coat's actual, unfortunate, color. We'll have to take his word for it.

Feb 27, 2013 at 05:00 AM

Bobu
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p.17 #2 · M240 Full Res Samples

Toothwalker wrote:

It is difficult to get natural colors with strong ND filters, even without the possible contribution of infrared light, because these filters don't have a flat response over the visible part of the spectrum. I still have a couple of pinkish slides resulting from an ND filter.

I know, but normally this is easily corrected in PP (of course it is/was a big problem with slides). Often some WB adjustment is all you need. This was both the case my 5DII and my RX100, but with the M9 it is clearly more difficult and quite often impossible to get good colors (using a ND 3.0). And I'm convinced that this is due to the high IR sensitivity.

Boris

Feb 27, 2013 at 01:32 PM

Bobu
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p.17 #3 · M240 Full Res Samples

thrice wrote:
You might want to invest in an IR-cut ND filter Boris.
Even the D800 has issues with strong ND's.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/40632-nikon-d800-issues-when-using-10-nd-filter.html

Thanks Dan, that's really an interesting information. I didn' even know, that combined IR-cut/ND-filter exist. So far I've only used filters from B+W, Heliopan, Lee and Cokin and they don't offer this kind of filter.
Do you know who offers a combined IR-cut/ND-filter. So far I've only found this one from Tiffen with a maximum strength of 0.9 (far to low!) and a price of 620$:
http://www.tiffen.com/displayproduct.html?tablename=filters&itemnum=W6666IRND3POLA

Boris

Feb 27, 2013 at 01:41 PM

ryankarr
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p.17 #4 · M240 Full Res Samples

thrice wrote:
You might want to invest in an IR-cut ND filter Boris.
Even the D800 has issues with strong ND's.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/40632-nikon-d800-issues-when-using-10-nd-filter.html

I've done a lot of long exposure strong ND work with my D800 and never noticed anything. To me, that example looks like the viewfinder being left open.

Feb 27, 2013 at 03:10 PM

Bobu
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p.17 #5 · M240 Full Res Samples

I've found now the filters on the B&H website. I will open a new thread to further discuss this topic since it has nothing to do with the M240.

Boris

Feb 27, 2013 at 04:19 PM

philber
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p.17 #6 · M240 Full Res Samples

Leica's process of opening own stores is entirely in keeping with it defining itself as a luxury-product company, as has been correctly identified by others in this thread, the same strategy followed by Hermes, LVMH, Porsche, etc...
Such a strategy rests on the customer experience (as different from product performance) being an important part of the perceived value.
Thus Dan's comments that the M's performance and features shouldn't be compared head-to-head with others, because the metrics that matter are to be found in the satisfaction index of the "Leica community".
What will define the success or failure of this positioning is how well it is executed. I, for one, cannot imagine Porsche users having to get their cars fixed frequently, or being satisfied by their cars lacking in performance or features what less luxo-oriented cars have.
But of course their level of skepticism inherently makes me a Leica hater in Dan's eyes, as it makes Boris insane.
One obvious difference between accepted luxo-company behavior and Leica, if Dan is a worthy example of the latter, is their relationship to disappointed would-be or existing customers. The words "hater" and "insane" would never be used, they are just too... ordinary

. They would probably say something like "if you can bear to live without a Leica, the best of luck to you. We are very fortunate that quite a few -but not many- quality people just don't seem to be able to do without it..."

Feb 27, 2013 at 04:52 PM

douglasf13
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p.17 #7 · M240 Full Res Samples

Porsche owners certainly have their share of issues to deal with. Every 911 made from around '98 to around '07 has an internal bearing that is prone to failure, and, if it fails, it means replacing the entire engine. So, owners are forced to either replace it with an after market bearing that is less likely to fail, and/or install various aftermarket accessories in an attempt to monitor the bearing. Of course, like with many German automobiles, electrical issues are also always a worry.

The new Porsche 911 991 has received a lot of criticism, because the interiors are more Panamera sedan-like, the longer wheel base means the engine sits a bit further forward, and the steering has become electronic, which some think removes much of the feel. What is going on between Leica, Porsche and their enthusiasts is pretty similar, I'd say.

While we're at it, Rolex has been making their watches bigger and a bit more square, in order to keep with the times, and that bugs a lot of enthusiasts, too. For brands like these, it's quite a balancing act to keep enthusiasts happy while bringing in new buyers who want something more current.

Feb 27, 2013 at 05:08 PM

JohnJ
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p.17 #8 · M240 Full Res Samples

Bobu wrote:
thrice wrote:
You might want to invest in an IR-cut ND filter Boris.
Even the D800 has issues with strong ND's.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/40632-nikon-d800-issues-when-using-10-nd-filter.html

Thanks Dan, that's really an interesting information. I didn' even know, that combined IR-cut/ND-filter exist. So far I've only used filters from B+W, Heliopan, Lee and Cokin and they don't offer this kind of filter.
Do you know who offers a combined IR-cut/ND-filter. So far I've only found this one from Tiffen with a maximum strength of 0.9 (far to low!) and a price of 620$:
http://www.tiffen.com/displayproduct.html?tablename=filters&itemnum=W6666IRND3POLA

Boris

Possibly relevant. I use B+W 106 (6 stops) , B+W 110 (10 stop) and Hoya NDx400 (9 stop) filters on a Canon 5D2. The B+W 106 and 110 shows a significant (and almost impossible to properly fix) amber colour cast whilst the Hoya NDx400 has no such cast and is even slightly blue, and easy to properly correct. It might be worth having a look at the Hoyas, maybe they filter IR better than the B+W, they certainly do in the above example.

Feb 28, 2013 at 12:54 PM

thrice
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p.17 #9 · M240 Full Res Samples

Hmm looks like I have an m240 and 50 apo on their way.

Feb 28, 2013 at 01:14 PM

rirakuma
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p.17 #10 · M240 Full Res Samples

Feb 28, 2013 at 01:52 PM

edwardkaraa
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p.17 #11 · M240 Full Res Samples

thrice wrote:
Hmm looks like I have an m240 and 50 apo on their way.

Congratulations!!! No wonder you're taking some time off the forums. You need to test drive it and report back to us

Feb 28, 2013 at 03:15 PM

Bijltje
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p.17 #12 · M240 Full Res Samples

thrice wrote:
Hmm looks like I have an m240 and 50 apo on their way.

Wow! I see u stop using this forum, but would like to know ur experiences with this combo and comparisons with the M9. U post on other fora?

Feb 28, 2013 at 03:23 PM

woos
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p.17 #13 · M240 Full Res Samples

ryankarr wrote:
thrice wrote:
You might want to invest in an IR-cut ND filter Boris.
Even the D800 has issues with strong ND's.
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/nikon/40632-nikon-d800-issues-when-using-10-nd-filter.html

I've done a lot of long exposure strong ND work with my D800 and never noticed anything. To me, that example looks like the viewfinder being left open.

Bingo, you nailed it imho.

The D800 and 5D3 do NOT have issues with color casts due to long exposure of that sort. The D800 DOES have some amp glow at high ISO long exposure (but it looks NOTHING like that). In my experience, the D800 is slightly nosier than the 5d3 at ultra long exposures (though I usually use dark frame subtraction so meh w/e at that point). By slightly nosier I mean more hot pixels not the overall image.

An example of a D800 shot of approx 2 mins exposure, using an ND500 filter. It was under exposed. Whoops. User error on my part. I then boosted the entire picture up by over THREE stops. No color cast.

This image is copyrighted by the owner

You will get color casts when using an ND400, ND100, ND500, ND1000, whatever filter in two cases:

1. You leave the viewfinder open and light goes in. You might think "that doesn't happen". And normally it doesn't. I never bother to close the viewfinder up with anything less than a minute long exposure, at least. You really hafta do something incredibly stupid to muck up the exposure. (Ie, you need to be like me and do things like under exposure your entire image by 3 stops!) But you know what...people just don't think about this. They'll go up into the mountains for a 10 minute star exposure. They'll focus, get it all right, then lower the ISO and start their 10min exposure. Then they'll stand behind the camera playing on their cell phone with the brightness cranked way the hell up. Then stuff like that happens and people wonder why. Ask me how I know! lol :P

2. Light rays going through the ND filter at an angle will be darkened more than light rays going through the ND filter straight through. This should be intuitively obvious to anyone with a little common sense. I would seriously hope. lol. As there are a total of 0 ND filters on the market that are 100.00% percent neutral...and the darker you go, the harder and harder it is to maintain a completely neutral darkening of the image... Well, some images, especially those taken with a wide angle lens (see above, this should be intuitively obvious again), will have a color cast in part of the pic. This can be corrected very easily with local white balance (or, I'd assume, even easier with capture one but I'm not a C1 user).

Apr 09, 2013 at 06:21 AM

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