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Archive 2013 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity
  
 
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


Paul Gardner wrote:
The RX1 does look doable, but the DP series ergonomics just don't catch my interest either. I'll have to rent a DP2M and give it a try.
Regards
Paul.


Given their price, the current DP Merrill's are pretty much untouchable within their narrow area of expertise (base ISO). As far as ergonomics, there really are more similarities than discrepancies between an RX1 and a DP Merrill - no built in finder, stationary LCD, fixed lens and so on - both basically soap bars with a lens. You could of course add an EVF to the RX1 or an OVF to either. I would think preferred focal length would be a major deciding factor for landscape use. For stationary, distant landscape use in good light/ base ISO, one of the Merrill's would be an obvious choice. If you regularly require higher ISO's, then not so much.



Jan 14, 2013 at 01:22 PM
frezeiss
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


Paul, why not buy the Zeiss 21 for your D800E


Jan 14, 2013 at 04:51 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Just addressing the question of the OP, which was specifically about infinity performance.

No, I don't have tests with the RX1. That said, it does not seem at all likely - and there would be no reason to believe - that the RX1 would be capable of outperforming the D800E, even with the Nikkor 28 1.8G (which is no slouch stopped down between 5.6 and F8). Therefore, it would seem to follow that the DP1M, if capable of at least matching that performance (D800E+28 1.8G), would likewise outperform the RX1. Nothing against the RX1, which would be a much
...Show more

Just because you think DP1M outperforms D800E with 28/1.8 doesn't necessarily mean it is better than RX1.
It may, but I would like to see side by side comparisons.
Also I assume you are talking only at infinity and stopped down to f8? I doubt DP1M outperforms D800E and ZF21/2.8. Also when you say outperform you are only talking outresolving and do not take into account microcontrast, colors, etc. right?
Guess I would like to see some comparison shots with other cameras. Anybody have some links? TIA.



Jan 14, 2013 at 05:52 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


wayne seltzer wrote:
Just because you think DP1M outperforms D800E with 28/1.8 doesn't necessarily mean it is better than RX1.
It may, but I would like to see side by side comparisons.
Also I assume you are talking only at infinity and stopped down to f8? I doubt DP1M outperforms D800E and ZF21/2.8. Also when you say outperform you are only talking outresolving and do not take into account microcontrast, colors, etc. right?
Guess I would like to see some comparison shots with other cameras. Anybody have some links? TIA.


The D800E with a really great lens would certainly out-resolve the DP Merrills. The Nikkor 28 1.8G is a good lens but not what I would consider really in the same league as say the best Zeiss or even Sigma lenses for that matter, but it really boils down to what one is shooting with any specific lens of course. So sure, my comparison was with a decent lens. What I found was that in the central area, where the 28 1.8G was tack sharp, it did out resolve the DP1 Merrill - but they were far closer to one another than one would expect. Pretty much every where else, the DP1 Merrill was superior, and not just with regard to resolving power. Better contrast, better color, better micro-contrast you name it.

Having shot - and tested - far too many camera+lens combos than I care to remember, my somewhat educated opinion is that the RX1 is simply outclassed by the DP Merrills with regard to what the OP asked (infinity landscape subject matter). I don't think I"m alone in that opinion - and it's a fairly logical conclusion once images from these two cameras are examined. But yes, it would be nice to have back to back examples for the skeptics.

Here are a few out of my DP1 Merrill showing microcontrast, color, detail... 100% crops follow each full image.


























...and here is a quick comparison of the NIkon D800E+28 1.8G and the DP1 Merrill I did for myself a while back. Not really a distant shot but it was enough to convince me of the capability of the DP1 Merrill.

First the scene as rendered by the DP1 Merrill:






Now crops showing 100% details from the DP1M on the left as compared to reduced crops from the Nikon D800E + 28 1.8G on the right:


















Jan 14, 2013 at 07:34 PM
Paul Gardner
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


Freziess: I am perfectly happy with my Nikon 24mm F1.4G on the D800E. I am trying to decide on a replacement for my G1X for casual shooting, and on a long grueling mountain hike where I don't wish to carry the whole set of gear. (tripod, shutter cable, gear bag, etc.) At 78 I'm slowing down and 3000-5000 ft gains are getting tough.


Jan 14, 2013 at 09:22 PM
carstenw
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


Tariq, I guess we are all different. I look at those comparison crops, and on the D800 shots I see nice, relaxed details, and on the DP1M shots I see a glitchy, artifacty mess which would drive me nuts. It doesn't look like foliage, but a lo-res rendering of foliage, to me.

For each his own, however.



Jan 14, 2013 at 09:28 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


carstenw wrote:
Tariq, I guess we are all different. I look at those comparison crops, and on the D800 shots I see nice, relaxed details, and on the DP1M shots I see a glitchy, artifacty mess which would drive me nuts. It doesn't look like foliage, but a lo-res rendering of foliage, to me.

For each his own, however.


Yes, I do see issues with the DP1M versions and originally posted this comparison in a sigma thread to show how, with certain scenes, there is a sort of "cut-off" effect with fine gradation in the shadows. That said, the detail is there and the examples above it - to me - show really nice, sharp images and rendering of fine detail. I also think folks have become accustomed to seeing the mushy effect of what a bayer sensor looks like with such subjects (grass, foliage, fine twigs) which also comes into play when looking at foveon images of fine detail.



Jan 14, 2013 at 10:16 PM
carstenw
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


I don't think what I am seeing is just more detail. Look especially in the grass in the last and third-from-last Foveon shots and you will see a lot of little exactly vertical and exactly horizontal detail that real grass just wouldn't look like. To me it looks bizarre, as if we were viewing the image at 200%.

I am all for AA-filter-less cameras and the idea of the Foveon, but with the above crops, I would take the D800 every time.



Jan 14, 2013 at 10:18 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


carstenw wrote:
I don't think what I am seeing is just more detail. Look especially in the grass in the last and third-from-last Foveon shots and you will see a lot of little exactly vertical and exactly horizontal detail that real grass just wouldn't look like. To me it looks bizarre, as if we were viewing the image at 200%.

I am all for AA-filter-less cameras and the idea of the Foveon, but with the above crops, I would take the D800 every time.


Agreed. To my eyes the Sigma crops look like what the D800/E images would look like with the addition of large-radius sharpening added (local contrast). Not sure if that's a property of the Sigma sensor or instead just one of the countless "default" decisions that need to be made by raw processing software.



Jan 14, 2013 at 10:24 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


carstenw wrote:
I don't think what I am seeing is just more detail. Look especially in the grass in the last and third-from-last Foveon shots and you will see a lot of little exactly vertical and exactly horizontal detail that real grass just wouldn't look like. To me it looks bizarre, as if we were viewing the image at 200%.

I am all for AA-filter-less cameras and the idea of the Foveon, but with the above crops, I would take the D800 every time.


If you are referring to the larger 100% crops above the D800E comparisons, that's exactly what the highly fertilized, grass in Florida suburban neighborhoods looks like - almost artificial and too perfect!



Jan 14, 2013 at 11:56 PM
 

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carstenw
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


And strictly vertical and horizontal?


Jan 15, 2013 at 10:10 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


carstenw wrote:
And strictly vertical and horizontal?


I'm simply not seeing that (perfectly horizontal and vertical shapes) in the top set - third and fourth shots from the top, nor do I see it in the 100% crop of the tree foliage right under those. Just to confirm that, I took the fourth from the top 100% crop of the grass into PS, converted to grayscale and boosted the contrast to an extreme to really show the shape of the grass blades. There are clearly some curved blades in there. Anyway, that's what that type of grass looks like - and it does look somewhat artificial. It does not look like grass in Canada or Germany. I will say that most images one sees from the foveon sensor have been over sharpened though. The default sharpening in the Sigma software adds quite a bit. I usually reduce that to -1 though -2 is generally considered "off/ no sharpening" for that software.



Jan 15, 2013 at 12:43 PM
Mescalamba
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


If you put Leica R 28mm f2.8 on that D800E, I think result would be bit different maybe. Thing is that DP1M and DP2M lens are really good and theres very few lens for FF that could do same. I think designs are very similar to 30mm and 19mm for NEX.

Maybe new 35mm f1.4 from Sigma would be interesting choice too for sharpness.

DP cams are nice, just they need quite a bit of light or HDR to work really well. Otherwise there are those brown patches of noise in shadows (might be NR from Sigma PP). Maybe most of those issues could be cured if there was simply some normal RAW converter. Sigma was never great in creating software..



Jan 15, 2013 at 01:51 PM
frezeiss
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


Paul Gardner wrote:
Freziess: I am perfectly happy with my Nikon 24mm F1.4G on the D800E. I am trying to decide on a replacement for my G1X for casual shooting, and on a long grueling mountain hike where I don't wish to carry the whole set of gear. (tripod, shutter cable, gear bag, etc.) At 78 I'm slowing down and 3000-5000 ft gains are getting tough.


I'm sure you are..but that Zeiss is just phenomenal!

Ahh, I see.. if the RX1 interest you then the X100s is worth the consideration. No AA filter, 2nd gen X trans sensor etc., I think it will give the RX1 quite a run, It might even beat it for detail.

If you like it in the long run, buy the XE-2 or what ever for your second system.

I'm most pleased right now with my XE-1 + fujinon lenses than my D700 + ZF lenses or Nex 5N + ZM lenses.







Jan 15, 2013 at 04:12 PM
alundeb
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Now crops showing 100% details from the DP1M on the left as compared to reduced crops from the Nikon D800E + 28 1.8G on the right:
http://www.gibranstudio.com/dp1mc.jpg


The difference here is so striking that I got a sincere curiosity in finding out what it is causing it.

One part of it (the contrast) was quite easy. Apply 60% USM with radius 8 pixels to the Nikon image, and they get very similar in that respect.

For the detail, I wonder about the downscaling algorithm. Will the Nikon image get closer to the DP1M if you try Nearest Neighbour downscaling, just for fun?

Or could you post the unscaled, unsharpened crop from Nikon and grant me the permission to play with it?



Jan 15, 2013 at 04:39 PM
alwang
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


Tariq Gibran wrote:
I'm simply not seeing that (perfectly horizontal and vertical shapes) in the top set - third and fourth shots from the top, nor do I see it in the 100% crop of the tree foliage right under those. Just to confirm that, I took the fourth from the top 100% crop of the grass into PS, converted to grayscale and boosted the contrast to an extreme to really show the shape of the grass blades. There are clearly some curved blades in there. Anyway, that's what that type of grass looks like - and it does look somewhat artificial.
...Show more

This is getting a little off topic, but I also see what looks like small horizontal/vertical segments in that image, and it's been noticed by others as well in other DP2M images. Images not of Florida grass. For example:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1150855/3#11006210

I still think the DP2x cameras are capable of astonishing levels of real detail, and probably can't be beat among compacts.



Jan 15, 2013 at 04:53 PM
Nanh
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


alwang wrote:
This is getting a little off topic, but I also see what looks like small horizontal/vertical segments in that image, and it's been noticed by others as well in other DP2M images. Images not of Florida grass. For example:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1150855/3#11006210

I still think the DP2x cameras are capable of astonishing levels of real detail, and probably can't be beat among compacts.


I think it's just people not used to seeing perfectly sharp, measured pixels as opposed to interpolated ones. Interpolation can never give the sort of pixel level contrast even if it is present in the scene.

Try move your chairs back a little or use a retina-ish screen so that you cannot tell individual pixels apart.



Jan 15, 2013 at 06:27 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


frezeiss wrote:
I'm sure you are..but that Zeiss is just phenomenal!

Ahh, I see.. if the RX1 interest you then the X100s is worth the consideration. No AA filter, 2nd gen X trans sensor etc., I think it will give the RX1 quite a run, It might even beat it for detail.

If you like it in the long run, buy the XE-2 or what ever for your second system.

I'm most pleased right now with my XE-1 + fujinon lenses than my D700 + ZF lenses or Nex 5N + ZM lenses.



Sorry to say that subject matter such as fine intricate detail of organic shapes, such as one might encounter in landscape work is exactly where the Xtrans sensor is at it's poorest (shows the most artifacts and obliterates fine detail with watercolor effects). Probably the last camera/ sensor I would recommend for that type of work - that is, unless Fuji has improved the Xtrans in the upcoming X100s. For pretty much all other type work, it's a fine system though.






Jan 15, 2013 at 07:13 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


alundeb wrote:
The difference here is so striking that I got a sincere curiosity in finding out what it is causing it.

One part of it (the contrast) was quite easy. Apply 60% USM with radius 8 pixels to the Nikon image, and they get very similar in that respect.

For the detail, I wonder about the downscaling algorithm. Will the Nikon image get closer to the DP1M if you try Nearest Neighbour downscaling, just for fun?

Or could you post the unscaled, unsharpened crop from Nikon and grant me the permission to play with it?


I will dig up those images and post something in a bit. As you say, contrast in that particular crop is the main difference. The DP1 Merrill does have issues with shadow gradation if one is being critical. At 100%, the Nikon D800E+28 1.8G resolves more actual detail in many of those crops. The crop with the fire hydrant is one place where the 28 1.8 lens performs poorly and is out-resolved by the Sigma. The fact that one can even compare the Sigma so closely to the D800E is really the point. Again though, I'm certainly not claiming the D800E with a really great lens will not outperform the Sigma. Even though I keep stating this, I sort of get the impression folks think that's what is being claimed.



Jan 15, 2013 at 07:22 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · RX1 - Resolution and DOF at infinity


alwang wrote:
This is getting a little off topic, but I also see what looks like small horizontal/vertical segments in that image, and it's been noticed by others as well in other DP2M images. Images not of Florida grass. For example:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1150855/3#11006210

I still think the DP2x cameras are capable of astonishing levels of real detail, and probably can't be beat among compacts.


Yes, but what are the details of that image? Seems like it maybe started life as a jpeg? Over sharpening and over-processing (which is the default situation with Sigma files until one intervenes) are the culprits of what you are seeing in this example.



Jan 15, 2013 at 07:27 PM
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