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Archive 2013 · Best way to choose the best copy?

  
 
retrofocus
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p.3 #1 · Best way to choose the best copy?


Tony B wrote:
Buy it, use it, keep it or take it back. I never buy anything that has been previously opened unless I obtain a substantial discount. If it is open why was it not purchased? Was it tested & found to be defective?



At least here in the US, many people seem to buy lenses online at bigger stores to use it for a short period of time and then send it back to the store when no longer needed. The store then sells this item as open box item, refurbished, or used with a decent discount. I bought several nice lenses this way and was never disappointed. All of them were like brand-new.



Jan 12, 2013 at 05:52 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #2 · Best way to choose the best copy?


Monito wrote:
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."


Excellence is a fine target, and unlike "perfect" it can actually be achieved.



Jan 12, 2013 at 06:30 PM
Sven Jeppesen
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p.3 #3 · Best way to choose the best copy?


Many lenses also comes in a sealed box. Like all of Canons super tele lenses as an example. No way you can test a few copies and take the one you like the best. And then the shop have 5-6 opened boxes of those 10k lenses.



Jan 12, 2013 at 08:35 PM
Paul Mo
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p.3 #4 · Best way to choose the best copy?


gfiksel wrote:
I've never seen a store owner that would let you unpack a bunch of neatly packed brand new lenses so you can cherry pick one and leave behind the rest for him to pack back. That's insane!


Please also realise that I left something hanging for the OP. I decided not to write it to see what responses would come.

And that was, 'You're likely to see no difference between five copies of the same lens whatsoever when peeping in Lightroom. So just buy one.'

Sven Jeppesen wrote:
Many lenses also comes in a sealed box. Like all of Canons super tele lenses as an example. No way you can test a few copies and take the one you like the best. And then the shop have 5-6 opened boxes of those 10k lenses.



I have never seen a sealed Canon box; lens or camera.



Jan 12, 2013 at 10:54 PM
ggOk
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p.3 #5 · Best way to choose the best copy?


I haven't seen any bad copy on 70-200 v2 yet. others, as long as it's a L glass, I was fortunate to have good copy everytime.. but of course, I'm just a hobbyist who makes the call from camera LCD screen

/r
Andy



Jan 13, 2013 at 12:17 AM
Lars Johnsson
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p.3 #6 · Best way to choose the best copy?


Paul Mo wrote:
I have never seen a sealed Canon box; lens or camera.


Every expensive Canon Tele lens comes in a big sealed box. Inside the box is the lens in the Hardcase. I have got a couple of other Canon lenses in sealed boxes also.



Jan 13, 2013 at 12:23 AM
UgashikBob
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p.3 #7 · Best way to choose the best copy?


I have 5 Canon L lenses that were advertised as new. All came from Authorized Canon dealers or advertised here as new and none came in a sealed box. To me when I pay the same amount or more I would like to know my lens has not been tested by anyone other than Canon.


Jan 13, 2013 at 01:20 AM
Ben Horne
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p.3 #8 · Best way to choose the best copy?


If people spent less time testing their equipment, and more time improving their photography --- I'm pretty sure the world would be a better place.


Jan 13, 2013 at 01:50 AM
Paul Mo
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p.3 #9 · Best way to choose the best copy?


Lars Johnsson wrote:
Every expensive Canon Tele lens comes in a big sealed box...


That would make sense considering their value. The 'lesser' lenses I've seen have always been 'shop' opened.



Jan 13, 2013 at 02:22 AM
Wahoowa
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p.3 #10 · Best way to choose the best copy?


Just want to follow up on this.

Basically, only a handful of people did answer my question--if you have an opportunity to choose the best out of a bunch, what methodology will you use? The thread turns out to be a debate between one sees it as an important issue to do it.

Let me tell you that I'm one of those who don't pixel peep. Heck, I don't even care if my 24-105L has much more barrel distortion at 24mm than any other L lenses at the same focal length. And that's why the 24-105L is my lens of choice most of the time rather than any other lenses. (And I do own a 24L II.)

Anyhow, I always knew that copy variation exists, but I didn't think it'd be that significant until one of my friends complained his 35L wasn't sharp at all. I original thought he needed to do microadjustment. But, after some experiments, it turned out that it's a lemon that microadjustment wouldn't do any good.

In addition, reading how LensRental did their test on several copies of their lenses, it shows me that copy variation may not be insignificant. For example,

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/01/canon-24-70-f4-is-resolution-tests

That said, I've heard a lot of members here and on POTN normally look for a 'sharp' copy. So, I'm eager to know how you do it. Going through this thread, I'm kinda surprised that most said they didn't care. On the other hand, I'm sure if my original post was that copy variation is not that important, I would have had responses that said otherwise.

Like I mentioned before, I'd have an opportunity to test five copies and choose to buy one of them if I wanted to. As someone in academia, in engineering field and in related area to photography, I'm interested in knowing how to 'scientifically' measure these. Obviously, MTF measurement is the obvious method. But, after doing some search, Quick MTF is the only available software and it's quite costly, running around $200-$300. I figure I could write the program myself, but that will cost my time. (That's why I said there's a time limit.) Even for that Quick MTF program, it turns out that I'd have to do AFMA for each lens to achieve the best results.

In the end, it seems that Reikan FoCal is a good enough tool that provides some feedback regarding the sharpness of each lens. It gives a 'quality measure' that can imply sharpness of a focus. Also, I figured that I could use it to confirm my AFMA on my three camera bodies.

Running tests through 5 copies of a zoom lens gave the following numbers after AFMA (the first number is the wide end and the second one is the long end):

1. 1713.9, 1785.3
2. 1697.9, 2034.9
3. 1750.9, 2063.1
4. 1783.5, 2169.0
5. 1741.6, 2112.1

Although the lighting at my lab wasn't that great (at about 6 EV), the results were pretty consistent. Note here that the higher the number, the better the quality of focus. I believe these numbers are probably some sort of sum of mean-square of something. So, the difference in tenth is probably not that significant. But it was quite a surprise to see one of the lenses was far inferior than the rest. Pictures that came out of it weren't that bad. I didn't pixel peep them. Unless my friend's 35L that I mentioned before, I wouldn't have noticed anything wrong with the lens from the pictures. But I'd still consider the #1 lens a lemon.

In conclusion, I start to believe that copy variation is there and is greater than what I'd thought for a long long time. Will it change my habit of buying used gear? Probably not. Most of my lenses are used. And I'll continue to buy used lenses, but I'll now be more aware of the 'lemons'.



Jan 13, 2013 at 10:16 AM
Sven Jeppesen
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p.3 #11 · Best way to choose the best copy?


You asked for the "Best Lens"
In your follow up it's the sharpest lens you like to have. That's not the same thing. If it only was a test for sharpness you could have asked for that.
So basically, you did not answer the question



Jan 13, 2013 at 10:33 AM
Wahoowa
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p.3 #12 · Best way to choose the best copy?


Sven Jeppesen wrote:
You asked for the "Best Lens"
In your follow up it's the sharpest lens you like to have. That's not the same thing. If it only was a test for sharpness you could have asked for that.
So basically, you did not answer the question


I guess 'best' was used loosely. And I guess the word 'best' can be defined differently for different people. Yes, it's possible the sharpest lens may not provide the least barrel distortion. Like I said in the original post, I needed a way to 'efficiently' find the best copy. (This is like, say, I want to find the best athlete. Later, I let them run a 40-yard dash because I can only have running lanes. And you come to suggest I should have asked who is the fastst runner.)

Anyway, I disagree as I believe that my method gave 'good enough' basis to 'potentially' find the best one. Reikan FoCal also gave some other info, like sharpness aperture and the like, but it seems to be pretty consistent with the previous measurement, so I didn't bother to include.

If you believe you have a better way to find the best lens (and not just the sharpest lens), maybe you might like to share us your insight? I can still get my hands on these lenses for at least a couple days.



Jan 13, 2013 at 10:54 AM
Monito
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p.3 #13 · Best way to choose the best copy?


You didn't indicate a lab setup or much about the setup in your original post.

Since you have a lab, and much time, and you have the passion for sharpness and "best copy", buy the Imatest program by Norman Koren. It is reputed to be the best in the industry.



Jan 13, 2013 at 11:15 AM
Wahoowa
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p.3 #14 · Best way to choose the best copy?


Monito wrote:
You didn't indicate a lab setup or much about the setup in your original post.

Since you have a lab, and much time, and you have the passion for sharpness and "best copy", buy the Imatest program by Norman Koren. It is reputed to be the best in the industry.


My lab is my research lab. It has nothing to do with photography lab, nor is this my main research. It's just where I did the tests. Like I said, I have an opportunity to get my hands on 5 copies, so I would like to find the best one.

Imatest looks interesting, but it's even more expensive than Quick MTF that I find it's expensive already.

Anyhow, I still don't mind learning how others would do it if you have the resources and how you would actually do it.

Edited on Jan 13, 2013 at 02:29 PM · View previous versions



Jan 13, 2013 at 12:01 PM
RCicala
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p.3 #15 · Best way to choose the best copy?


I would suggest testing both indoors and out if you possibly can. Performance at short distance and artificial light may be significantly different that infinity and sunlight.

I'd test each for front and backfocus on your camera just to see if any are wayyyyy out of sorts, assume you can MFA anything less than that. I would repeat that test with one copy stopping down slightly each time so I know if there's focus shift (which will affect all copies)

I would do the remaining tests using live-view with 10X focus to eliminate the very significant shot-to-shot variation that would occur if you used autofocus (same lens on same camera with same target shot 10 times is going to give you 6 or so same results, a couple close, a couple way off).

The rest depends on the lens in question. If it's a zoom I would definitely test at 3 focal lengths.

With close up testing, in particular, squareness in both planes to the chart is critical (within one degree for a wide aperture lens, certainly), so I would set up my tripod on my target and shoot serial shots, checking in photoshop until I had the setup square.

Then I would shoot each lens comparing the 4 corners. A bad side or corner I'd eliminate that copy. Center resolution is a very blunt tool and you're unlikely to see much difference there unless a lens is horridly out of spec.

I'd take the ones that pass the above outside and shoot some infinity targets, comparing sides and corners again. That's about it.

You'll find the most significant differences wide open. Stopping down will generally equalize them quite a bit.



Jan 13, 2013 at 12:52 PM
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