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Archive 2013 · EF mount's obselences
  
 
howard
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p.2 #1 · EF mount's obselences


It will be around. DSLRs will be around. I tried a mirrorless camera and don't like it.


Jan 10, 2013 at 02:22 PM
mpmendenhall
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p.2 #2 · EF mount's obselences


howard wrote:
It will be around. DSLRs will be around. I tried a mirrorless camera and don't like it.


If you tried an autofocus camera in 1985, or a digital camera in 1995, you probably wouldn't have liked them either. You might have been convinced that slow, noisy, inaccurate autofocus would always be a step back from a good manual focus lens in experienced professional hands; or that noisy, low-resolution, cramped dynamic range, over-priced digital systems could never beat the quality and versatility of film. Now, count how many manual focus film bodies Canon sells today.

Even if mirrorless cameras today aren't up to your standards, was there any aspect that you disliked about them that won't be fixed by the usual progress of technology?



Jan 10, 2013 at 02:39 PM
howard
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p.2 #3 · EF mount's obselences


mpmendenhall wrote:
If you tried an autofocus camera in 1985, or a digital camera in 1995, you probably wouldn't have liked them either. You might have been convinced that slow, noisy, inaccurate autofocus would always be a step back from a good manual focus lens in experienced professional hands; or that noisy, low-resolution, cramped dynamic range, over-priced digital systems could never beat the quality and versatility of film. Now, count how many manual focus film bodies Canon sells today.

Even if mirrorless cameras today aren't up to your standards, was there any aspect that you disliked about them that won't be fixed by
...Show more

But to pronounce the death of DSLR is way too premature.

There is something about looking at the optical image produced by the lens directly that only SLRs (regardless of whether they are digital, or autofocus) can offer.

I want to look at the real thing, reality if you wish. I don't get that with mirrorless cameras and I don't like it.



Jan 10, 2013 at 03:01 PM
sbv20
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p.2 #4 · EF mount's obselences


The end is definitely coming. Once the EVF and autofocus improve, the flappy mirror will be an ancient relic to be eliminated. Some of the responses here really lack tech foresight - look at improvements in sensor tech in the last 10 years. Now imagine 10 years of development in AF and EVF. The 3rd or 4th generations of pro-oriented mirrorless cameras are going to be awesome and there'll be no reason for SLRs.


Jan 10, 2013 at 03:22 PM
Gochugogi
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p.2 #5 · EF mount's obselences


mpmendenhall wrote:
If you tried an autofocus camera in 1985, or a digital camera in 1995, you probably wouldn't have liked them either. You might have been convinced that slow, noisy, inaccurate autofocus would always be a step back from a good manual focus lens in experienced professional hands; or that noisy, low-resolution, cramped dynamic range, over-priced digital systems could never beat the quality and versatility of film. Now, count how many manual focus film bodies Canon sells today.

Even if mirrorless cameras today aren't up to your standards, was there any aspect that you disliked about them that won't be fixed by
...Show more

Too small to hold comfortably (and steady) and difficult to balance with larger lenses. I must say I rarely get blurred photos with DSLRs but mirrorless ILC are a lot more picky about technique and tripod use. I find myself bracing against trees, fences and tables a lot more (even with IS engaged). Somehow, I think they will get even smaller as technology marches on while we get bigger. Still, the petite size is what keeps one with me at all times. Just very suckie for serious shooting.



Jan 10, 2013 at 03:29 PM
mpmendenhall
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p.2 #6 · EF mount's obselences


Gochugogi wrote:
Too small to hold comfortably (and steady) and difficult to balance with larger lenses. I must say I rarely get blurred photos with DSLRs but mirrorless ILC are a lot more picky about technique and tripod use. I find myself bracing against trees, fences and tables a lot more (even with IS engaged). Somehow, I think they will get even smaller as technology marches on while we get bigger. Still, the petite size is what keeps one with me at all times. Just very suckie for serious shooting.


As I mentioned earlier, the "too small" problem is the easiest of all to solve. With absolutely no advances in technology, any manufacturer can bolt on a big, heavy grip and proper analog controls to a smaller camera body. Once the technology matures enough for the rest of the camera to meet/exceed SLR standards (in autofocus speed, viewfinder resolution/DR/lag, etc.), nothing will hold Canon back from offering big "professional" body cameras if that's what will sell top-end cameras.



Jan 10, 2013 at 03:37 PM
Gochugogi
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p.2 #7 · EF mount's obselences


My fav viewfinder for my Oly E-P3 is the VF-1, a clip-on optical viewfinder with brightlines, so that great viewfinder resolution is already here, at least for pancake shooters. It works well for both my 17 F1.8 (brightlines) and Pany 14 F2.5 (compose to the edge of the frame). The EVFs so far have been pretty terrible.

I tried the Oly OM M4/3 and it's a nice package with the grip but I'd rather use a Rebel or 60D once at that size and weight.



Jan 10, 2013 at 03:46 PM
David Baldwin
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p.2 #8 · EF mount's obselences


"Once the EVF and autofocus improve, the flappy mirror will be an ancient relic to be eliminated."

For small cameras the mirror is a pain. But for larger formats the mirror is cheap and effective, there's a good reason that this Victorian technology is still around - it works!

For larger formats, like full frame bodies, electonic viewfinders are a solution in search of a problem, pretty much irrelevant, a toy. I want an absolutely real time view of my subject, not an approximation.



Jan 10, 2013 at 03:52 PM
riotshield
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p.2 #9 · EF mount's obselences


I predict 10 years. Every other tech in the consumer electronics industry moved/is moving to solid state or less mechanical parts; I don't see high-end cameras as different. Sure you can still buy film cameras, CD players, and phones with physical keypads, but there's no real product development for them. I think in a few years mirrorless AF and EVF will be developed to be good enough for most pros.


Jan 10, 2013 at 03:55 PM
mpmendenhall
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p.2 #10 · EF mount's obselences


David Baldwin wrote:
"Once the EVF and autofocus improve, the flappy mirror will be an ancient relic to be eliminated."

For small cameras the mirror is a pain. But for larger formats the mirror is cheap and effective, there's a good reason that this Victorian technology is still around - it works!

For larger formats, like full frame bodies, electonic viewfinders are a solution in search of a problem, pretty much irrelevant, a toy. I want an absolutely real time view of my subject, not an approximation.


The mirror/prism/finder assembly (plus submirror and separate autofocus sensors) is one of the most expensive components in the camera, and isn't plummeting in price with improving technology. There's a reason that 100% coverage pentaprism viewfinders are only found in high-$$$ models, and not thrown in as freebies in entry-level cameras. Furthermore, the design necessity of clearing the mirror accounts for a large fraction of the size/weight/cost of lenses wider than ~50mm --- you can make fast, wide-angle lenses a lot smaller and cheaper for the same image quality without the mirror clearance requirement.

So far as "problems" for EVFs to solve, they can provide instant feedback on how the real dynamic range of the scene will look when compressed into some target output space. Without needing to wait for the mirror, shutter lag can potentially be even shorter than the fastest SLRs, giving even better "real time" capability for precisely timed shots. Also, no noise or mirror shake for scaring away wildlife and blurring images.

Present-day EVFs aren't fully up to the standard of the best optical viewfinders, but for guessing what Canon's future plans are, the inadequacies of current EVF's are practically irrelevant compared to the rate of improvement (which is substantial, and points towards "better than real light" EVFs in the future).



Jan 10, 2013 at 04:07 PM
 

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ISO1600
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p.2 #11 · EF mount's obselences


chez wrote:
I don't think SLR's will go away, but they will become a niche high end system. The majority of DSLR's are sold at the rebel level and I see those being overrun by the mirrorless cameras. So we will be left with the high end DSLR's which will be high priced for rich hobbiests or professionals.


I agree 100%.
Mirrorless cameras are already making great strides- look at the NEX line and the OM-D. These are excellent cameras that perform just as well, if not better, for most tasks that Rebel level users would encounter...



Jan 10, 2013 at 04:11 PM
jcolwell
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p.2 #12 · EF mount's obselences


Frankly, my dear, I don't give a ...

... if my camera has a mirror or not. As long as it's fully equivalent in performance to a contemporary 1D-series camera, including EVF optical fidelity, I'll be OK. I certainly don't need a smaller body, but I'm open to new technical solutions.

OTOH, and back to the original intent for this thread, I will give a big ... if a "1D-series mirrorless replacement" body doesn't fully support the EF mount.



Jan 10, 2013 at 04:15 PM
mpmendenhall
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p.2 #13 · EF mount's obselences


jcolwell wrote:
OTOH, and back to the original intent for this thread, I will give a big ... if a "1D-series mirrorless replacement" body doesn't fully support the EF mount.


Designing a shorter, mirrorless mount that couldn't handle EF lenses (through an adapter) would be an impressive feat --- but one sometimes suspects that Canon might be up to the challenge, given past marketing/customer-relations decisions



Jan 10, 2013 at 04:27 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #14 · EF mount's obselences


What makes sense to me is a mirrorless EF mount studio/landscape camera while keeping the action/video 1D/1C series.

This could be a 6D size camera which is plenty small enough given the size of the lenses required for high image quality. Shooting from a tripod anyway, how small do you need?

I don't care if there is a mirror or not, or for AI servo style shooting for my niche. I just want the best possible live view preferably removable or at least an attachable remote high quality focus screen. I would like more pixels and no AA filter and better DR.


Canon has been rolling out a lot of new EF lenses. I suspect they needed to do this before bumping the resolution any further. This seems like long term commitment.



Jan 10, 2013 at 05:02 PM
dadgummit
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p.2 #15 · EF mount's obselences


Wahoowa wrote:
With how the Canon mirrorless performs, it's more like the Canon EOS-M will be obsoleted first.


this is funny because it is true!



Jan 10, 2013 at 07:11 PM
Photon
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p.2 #16 · EF mount's obselences


I think Michael Mendenhall has a handle on all of the factors involved in the movement of mirrorless cameras toward dominance over SLRs. I don't see myself replacing my DSLR system with a MILC in the next five or ten years, but I can easily imagine the technology improving in that time to the point that people starting out in serious photography will go for such a system and have no need for an SLR.

If Canon does design a great system with a mount that can use EF lenses with an adapter, that could convince a lot of people like me to take a look at it as something to use along side our older gear. I'm not so naive as to try to predict the progression of anything that involves both technology and economics, but to say that SLRs or the EF lens mount will never go away seems even more naive.



Jan 10, 2013 at 08:07 PM
M Lucca
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p.2 #17 · EF mount's obselences


I like the OM-5 or whatever it's called. I wish Canon would come up with a retro style mirror less like that.
SLR will be phased out. It is inevitable. Question is when.



Jan 10, 2013 at 08:08 PM
MintMar
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p.2 #18 · EF mount's obselences


sbv20 wrote:
The end is definitely coming. Once the EVF and autofocus improve, the flappy mirror will be an ancient relic to be eliminated. Some of the responses here really lack tech foresight - look at improvements in sensor tech in the last 10 years. Now imagine 10 years of development in AF and EVF. The 3rd or 4th generations of pro-oriented mirrorless cameras are going to be awesome and there'll be no reason for SLRs.


Also the Sony approach is possible. You will get a fixed pellicle mirror to see TTL, but PD AF sensors will be integrated in the main sensor. No moving parts either, but OVF is kept.



Jan 10, 2013 at 08:32 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #19 · EF mount's obselences


Gochugogi wrote:
I tried the Oly OM M4/3 and it's a nice package with the grip but I'd rather use a Rebel or 60D once at that size and weight.





It's still massively, smaller and lighter than the 60D and so are the lenses, no matter how you look at it.



Jan 10, 2013 at 09:12 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #20 · EF mount's obselences


dadgummit wrote:
this is funny because it is true!


Hope their skunkworks is working on the M2.



Jan 10, 2013 at 09:13 PM
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