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Archive 2012 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images
  
 
Sven Jeppesen
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p.3 #1 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


Paul Mo wrote:
Mark, if you shot a well-lit static image with s 5D MKIII and a 50mm, and a 7D with a 35mm, apart from slight focal length disparity, what qualitative differences would you be seeing?

Thanks.


About everything would be better with the 5D3. The 7D is a nice body. But the latest FF bodies will of course be a lot better when you don't need any reach



Dec 31, 2012 at 01:35 AM
howard
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p.3 #2 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


dhphoto wrote:
You mean apart from the 550D, 600D and 650D which have the same sensor?


OK, I forgot about Rebel-series cameras.



Dec 31, 2012 at 02:11 AM
howard
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p.3 #3 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


anthonygh wrote:
Doesn't the G10 have this honour?


OK, OK, I meant non-entry-level DSLRs.



Dec 31, 2012 at 02:11 AM
anthonygh
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p.3 #4 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


The G10 is an interesting camera (I have one). Amazing images at ISO 100. Imagine that sensor technology at FF level backed by a digi 5 processor.....or maybe more appropriate...the G15 sensor?


Dec 31, 2012 at 02:40 AM
Yeidyc123
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p.3 #5 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


I have tried almost every camera out there, Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Sony, but I went back to the Canon 5D classic. The SOOC are just so amazing to me...and paired with the 50mm 1.4 is heavenly


Dec 31, 2012 at 03:57 PM
veroman
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p.3 #6 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


Yeidyc123 wrote:
I have tried almost every camera out there, Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Sony, but I went back to the Canon 5D classic. The SOOC are just so amazing to me...and paired with the 50mm 1.4 is heavenly


Same here. I have about 157,000 images in my Lightroom catalog. They are from nearly every brand and type of camera imaginable, from the old 2MP Kodak DCS 520 to the Fuji S2 Pro to the Canon 1Ds II and ... best of all ... the Canon 5Dc.

These past few days I've been cleaning out my LR catalog, ie getting rid of images I know I have no use for any longer and that are just taking up precious room on my back-up drives. Whenever I come across a Canon 5Dc image, it clearly and instantly separates itself from all the rest in terms of sharpness, clarity, detail, color, etc. Simply a remarkable camera. in every respect. Those big pixels really count for something.

- Steve



Dec 31, 2012 at 04:10 PM
galenapass
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p.3 #7 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


garydavidjones wrote:
I have been very impressed with IQ of 7D when max. reach is needed compared to the 5D3.
5D3 is generally superior but not at the maximum of 100-400 mm L lens. At that point the 7D is
has the better IQ in my opinion.

This is a good example of how subjective this subject is. I do NOT find that the quality of the 7D is that good, particularly at higher IOSs. But, that is my opinion. I agree with Steve, distilling this down to pixels per duck is an oversimplification. There is something about the tonality of images coming off the 1D3 sensor that I just can't replicate with a 7D. To my eye, 1D4 images do look very similar to the 1D3. But, eight out of ten times I can look at an image posted on the wildlife board and spot a 7D shot. I just don't like the output, regardless of detail it may or may not capture.



Dec 31, 2012 at 04:29 PM
galenapass
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p.3 #8 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


veroman wrote:
Same here. I have about 157,000 images in my Lightroom catalog. They are from nearly every brand and type of camera imaginable, from the old 2MP Kodak DCS 520 to the Fuji S2 Pro to the Canon 1Ds II and ... best of all ... the Canon 5Dc.

These past few days I've been cleaning out my LR catalog, ie getting rid of images I know I have no use for any longer and that are just taking up precious room on my back-up drives. Whenever I come across a Canon 5Dc image, it clearly and instantly separates itself from all
...Show more

I always have the same experience with D200 pictures. That CCD sensor really had/has some magic!



Dec 31, 2012 at 04:31 PM
veroman
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p.3 #9 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


galenapass wrote:
I always have the same experience with D200 pictures. That CCD sensor really had/has some magic!


I agree. The D200 was one of my favorite cameras ... high on my list of all-time GREAT cameras, along with the D2x. But I stopped shooting two platforms a while back and settled on Canon, mostly because of Canon's superiority in the high ISO department. Loved that D200, though.

- Steve



Dec 31, 2012 at 04:38 PM
veroman
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p.3 #10 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


galenapass wrote:
This is a good example of how subjective this subject is. I do NOT find that the quality of the 7D is that good, particularly at higher ISOs. But, that is my opinion. I agree with Steve, distilling this down to pixels per duck is an oversimplification. There is something about the tonality of images coming off the 1D3 sensor that I just can't replicate with a 7D .....


It's the big pixels. They win out every time.

- Steve



Dec 31, 2012 at 04:40 PM
 

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Liquidstone
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p.3 #11 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


galenapass wrote:
+1. This makes the most sense. Acceptable differences between sensor sizes versus the use of a 1.4 or 2X TC are VERY subjective. For example, I much prefer the output from my 1DMK3 versus a 7D (even though the 7D clearly has a pixel density advantage). So much so, in fact, that I sold the 7D. Others would strongly disagree with this.



I agree, hence I strongly disagree.




Jan 01, 2013 at 01:26 AM
Imagemaster
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p.3 #12 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


Noisy pixels-per-duck from an easily spotted 7D image:





  Canon EOS 7D    EF500mm f/4L IS II USM lens    700mm    f/5.6    1/500s    1600 ISO    0.0 EV  




Jan 01, 2013 at 02:01 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #13 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


Gunzorro wrote:
Dan -- This is of course strictly your opinion and has no basis in objective facts. You are welcome to that opinion, and I'm sure many people share it, but I'm not one of them. If I could look at 1000% with no raster edges and minute details, I'd like that option and more. It as much value to me, although I'll admit it's an arbitrary opinion I hold.


That is fine for some sort of technical inspection of your photograph, but it is useless for actually viewing it as a photograph since you cannot see the whole image!

Yeidyc123 wrote:
I have tried almost every camera out there, Canon, Nikon, Olympus and Sony, but I went back to the Canon 5D classic. The SOOC are just so amazing to me...and paired with the 50mm 1.4 is heavenly


I've shot digital for quite some time, and I have to tell you that nothing matches the output of my 640 KP (kilo-pixel) first-generation Apple QuickTake camera. It has all been downhill since then...

Meanwhile, back in the real world. I still carry around my 5D as a second/backup body, and I make prints from photographs made with that camera. It was and is a fine camera. However, if the 5D actually produced better photographs than my 5D2 in any way, shape, or form... I would use it instead of the 5D2 since I often have both of them with me.

I haven't. Not once.

Dan



Jan 01, 2013 at 02:32 AM
kevindar
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p.3 #14 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


I guess each of us has a different threshold of what is good. I thought a correctly exposed 7d at iso 1600 cleans up nicely and still holds good detail.
Here is a shot at iso 1600, f 6.3, 100-400L, 7d, minimal changes to exposure, other than pulling back the highlight slightly, sharpened and noise reduced, all in LR4
full image






100% crop







Jan 01, 2013 at 02:42 AM
mitesh
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p.3 #15 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


Seems that excellent results can be obtained from cropped sensors or cropped photos.

Not sure if this adds to the discussion or not, but here is a 50% crop sample from the 5D3. Please excuse the unremarkable shot of the GBH. No noise reduction performed. Default sharpening, LR 4 export to JPEG.

Focal length = 1,680mm (600mm + 1.4x + 2x)
ISO = 6400
Tv = 1/500
Av = f/16

I only took this image to see what the result would look like at that extreme distance, high-ish ISO and lopping off half the pixels. Even with the heavy crop, I think this is passable for web viewing.

Edited on Jan 04, 2013 at 02:17 AM · View previous versions



Jan 01, 2013 at 06:40 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.3 #16 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


rcm123 wrote:
I believe that this has been discussed previously, but I couldn't locate the thread(s). I am going to Alaska this summer to photograph the brown bears at Lake Clark and I will be shooting with a 1Dx. I will have a 7D as a second body. If I were to capture an image of the same bear from the same distance with each body & 500 mm lens, then crop the full frame image so that the bear is the same size as in the 7D image - or crop both images so that the bear is the same size
...Show more

No, in good light the 7d quality will be considerably better, in the test you describe.

I have tested this concept visually comparing 5d3 and 7d. What you will find is that:
7d is better than 1dx cropped, but not by 60% because the quality of the sensors is less on the 7d. Perhaps about 2/3 of the amount.

In addition if you go to dxomark.com and you will find that cropped frame sensors get about 20% less resolution than full frame, when used as you suggest. eg 60 vs 50. 50/60 x 1.6 gets you about 1.33 effective better resolution.

My order of preference for reach is:
1) Bigger lens on ff
2) 1.4x ii on big lens on ff
3) 7d
4) 7d with 1.4x

And ignoring resolution, the 1dx will get about 1-2 stop better performance in low light, so its hard to choose in low light.

And the focus on 1dx will be better.

Scott






Jan 01, 2013 at 07:30 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #17 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Kevindar, thanks for the explanation. Could you expand on the tradeoff of "5d2+1.4x, is about same pixel on duck at 60d" if you've experimented with this? I have both 5D2 and 7D to use with my 100-400. I find the images with the 5D2 are superior to those from the 7D when not reach limited. So the question, hopefully relevant to the OP, is whether using a 1.4x and an extra stop of ISO on a 1DX or 5D3 will yield a better or equivalent image quality to using a straight 7D? I'm considering replacing my 7D with a
...Show more

Not IMO. I use the 7D + 100-400 extensively and it offers a several advantages over the 5D III + 100-400 + 1.4. Firstly at this stage the 5D III combo can't AF unless using a third party TC and no matter how well that works it's won't touch the 7D combo for speed, which will give you access to 19 x-type points. The 7D does very well at least to ISO 1600, so unless you are going to very high ISO, the IQ is excellent. The 7D combo still puts more pixels on the subject than the 5D III combo.

Now where the 5D III shines is if you can use it with natively longer glass or at not severely FL limited. I was birding before Xmas with the 5DIII + 500 f/4 + 1.4x at dusk and often needing ISO 6400+ and the AF was still great and the IQ simply amazing for the ISO's required.

IMO the 7D and 5D III are very nice compliments and worth owning both.



Jan 01, 2013 at 10:31 PM
veroman
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p.3 #18 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Not IMO. I use the 7D + 100-400 extensively and it offers a several advantages over the 5D III + 100-400 + 1.4. Firstly at this stage the 5D III combo can't AF unless using a third party TC and no matter how well that works it's won't touch the 7D combo for speed, which will give you access to 19 x-type points. The 7D does very well at least to ISO 1600, so unless you are going to very high ISO, the IQ is excellent. The 7D combo still puts more pixels on the subject than the 5D
...Show more

Today I happened to come across an Audubon Society magazine in my doctor's office in which they name the top 10 bird photographers and their bird photography. If my memory holds up, two of them worked with the 7D and 100-400 w/1.4 extender while some of the rest used a variety of crop cameras with longer lenses (including an xti and a Minolta Maxum 7Di). Three of the photographers shot with the Canon 5D Classic and a Canon 5D II. The lenses for the full frame shots were a 500mm and 800mm and they were, not surprisingly perhaps, the best of the shots ... which supports my view (and the one above) that appropriately longer glass with full frame results in the best possible imagery. It's the heavy and expensive way to go, but it's really the ideal way, I think.

- Steve



Jan 04, 2013 at 12:45 AM
Jeff Nolten
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p.3 #19 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


Pixel Perfect wrote:
...IMO the 7D and 5D III are very nice compliments and worth owning both.


I suspect there will be a 5DIII in my future - around April when the f8 firmware is due. Then I have evaluate which gear to keep and which to sell.



Jan 04, 2013 at 01:19 AM
anthonygh
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p.3 #20 · Full Frame v. Crop Factor Images


Your best and only safe solution is to get your hands on the kit and experiment......and record every variable. For example...a quality tripod might effect the ISO you can use so this will effect IQ. If you are hand holding the camera.....do both bodies need the same shutter speed? Same ISO?

And since you want to print large....take a 25% crop of your test images and print at at A4 and see what you think.

All that aside...as the 7D is merely a back up I would focus of getting the best from the 1DX...it is unlikely to go wrong!!




Jan 04, 2013 at 02:56 AM
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