Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

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sirimiri
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p.14 #1 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

artd wrote:
...
For example photos of Gursky's work with Spiderman or rodents Photoshopped in. That's just ridicule.

sebboh wrote:
oh, come on. that's just good fun in a thread that could stand for some levity.

¡+ uno! (a sebboh)

A well-placed capybara can bring levity to most situations. It's not inimical by nature, but people shall see in it what they will.

In a way, that's the gist of some of the "crabbing" that appearing earlier in the thread. By "crabbing" I mean people become entrenched in their arguments and curt in their manner.

Life is too short to get bent out of shape for certain things. I'm happy to live in a time where so many bits of "whatever" are easily accessible, even things one doesn't like or that don't resonate with the viewer, be it Moriyama or others. For all else....

...there are capybaras!

Dec 09, 2012 at 02:18 AM

akul
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p.14 #2 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Exdsc wrote:
Fred Miranda wrote:
I have deleted a few insulting posts and notified some members that this will not be tolerated here.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Fred

You have my full cooperation.

Hi, if you could, please fix the title of this thread to "DAIDO" Moriyama, not DIADO moriyama. Diado is so non-Japanese name.

Thanks

Dec 09, 2012 at 05:14 AM

RustyBug
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p.14 #3 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Shoot straight ... with respect and courtesy.

Many valid points on both sides being offered, but I think Paul pretty well nailed it when he illustrated the difference in his own choice of words ... they both try and communicate the exact same thing of his honest and direct opinion, but they can certainly come across very differently based on connotative and contextual perception.

"They both suck"
vs.
"they are equally unappealing and meaningless to me"

If I'm getting Bif on this one ... I think he's saying that we should be big boys & girls such that when a person does express his opinion in the more abbreviated version, that some tolerance that it is understood to roughly equate to the longer version might be rendered appropriate. That, or ask for clarification, explanation of expansion thereof ... prior to firing first salvo in a trigger happy nano-second. I hope I'm somewhat close on understanding Bif on this one.

Conversely, if one does choose to use the "abbreviated" version ... don't be so shocked that someone else might misinterpret direct brevity for rudeness. Most of us that participate here regularly have been around each other long enough to know our character a bit by now. For some of us, words aren't our best forte', so we don't use very many of them. For others of us ... we are prone to using too many of them (guilty as charged

).

A little forethought can go a long way, but we don't always do so ... it happens, not the end of the world ... and it is pretty easy to put back on track if we aren't too hyper-focused at hitting our targets with our salvo's at one another.

Another way to think about it is that if two people from the Bronx were trash talking each other, they'd likely both understood that it didn't mean jack squat. But if a Baptist from Alabama got in the middle of the conversation, he'd be quite offended and think the New Yorkers to be rude to each other and to him.

I'm neither a Baptist from Alabama, nor a New Yorker (apologies to either for anecdotal stereotyping) but I've been around enough to know that the socio-cultural differences can create a bit of dissension until you take the time to try and understand the other one. Fred has tried to establish an FM socio-culture for us to interact within, and imo, it is a pretty darn good one, especially for a global internet forum in today's world.

Being "uber-direct" can come across rude at times for some people. This is not to say that it is wrong to be "uber-direct" ... just understand that it might be misunderstood by some in the process. I know that even my own family can perceive my being "direct" as being "rude" ... and they should know me by now well enough to know that when I'm actually being "rude" ... I guarantee there will be no mistaking the difference.

Shoot straight ... with respect and courtesy. And, if you are gonna be snarky or strive for some levity (as some of us do from time to time) ... toss on a smiley, apologize in advance or something to let each other know that aren't trying to be being mean, just trying to have some spirited fun.

After all ... it is your fellow FM'ers that you're talking to (lurkers included).
FM ROCKS !!!

My .02

Dec 09, 2012 at 05:42 AM

Bifurcator
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p.14 #4 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

capybara |ˌkapəˈberə, -ˈbärə| noun
a South American mammal that resembles a giant, long-legged guinea pig. It lives in groups near water and is the largest living rodent.

Ummm, okay.

Dec 09, 2012 at 02:31 PM

Exdsc
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p.14 #5 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

RustyBug wrote:

http://www.cedarhurst.org/index.php?page=permanent-collection

Great shot that one... I mean in a sort of finally you showed your skill level...

Dec 09, 2012 at 10:54 PM

Exdsc
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p.14 #6 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

akul wrote:

Hi, if you could, please fix the title of this thread to "DAIDO" Moriyama, not DIADO moriyama. Diado is so non-Japanese name.

Thanks

I will fix it just this moment. Thank you for pointing that out.

Dec 09, 2012 at 10:58 PM

RustyBug
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p.14 #7 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Exdsc wrote:
RustyBug wrote:

http://www.cedarhurst.org/index.php?page=permanent-collection

Great shot that one... I mean in a sort of finally you showed your skill level...

Thanks.

I find it kinda interesting that the image of mine isn't one that will garner any "oohs & ahhs" from many people (which isn't its intent). I actually "polled" it before presenting it to Cedarhurst, and it had the weakest response of images I was considering to present. The primary reason I assume this is most people aren't aware of the context / intent for which the image was taken, or the point/message contained therein. Conversely, the curator, etc. @ Cedarhurst have a different perspective than the general populace.

Imo, you'd really have to know more about Cedarhurst, for it to make much sense or be better appreciated. Without some degree of accompanying insight into either my intent, or knowledge @ Cedarhurst, the viewer is going to be left to their own to judge/assess/evaluate @ great, good, don't get it, sucks, rank amateur, etc..

Fortunately, since it will be in the permanent collection at Cedarhurst, it will have some surrounding context / perspective that will hopefully aid future viewers seeing it in print. I suspect that in a similar vein, that holds true to why I "don't get" Daido anymore than I have been able to come to do so far ... i.e. just missing too much information for it to make sense on its own to some viewers ... thus for some, amplification is needed and warranted to aid in garnering understanding or appreciation, even if they don't like it cause it isn't their thing.

Dec 09, 2012 at 11:46 PM

Exdsc
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p.14 #8 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

RustyBug wrote:

Thanks.

I find it kinda interesting that the image of mine isn't one that will garner any "oohs & ahhs" from many people (which isn't its intent).

What is the intent of your image?

Is it a study of blown highlights and lost detail?

Dec 10, 2012 at 04:19 AM

artd
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p.14 #9 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

carstenw wrote:
artd wrote:
If you truly hold the opinion that someone's work is crap, that's fine. You're entitled to it. No one is going to force you to try and understand why the work is important or what it offers. The problem arises when people go into forums and start posting "this is crap" or other smugly dismissive commentary about well known artists as if they believe their own opinion is actually better than someone else's.

Really, this comment is just as bad, but in the other direction. Let's have a look:

- "No one is going to force you to try and understand why the work is important"

Aren't you assuming that the work is important? Or at least, aren't you assuming that because some people think that the work is important, that this is actually the case? If you are going to assign Henrik's view of the work to a mere opinion, then realise that your feelings are also just opinions. There is no such thing as a fact there, and the work is only important to people who are of the opinion it is, and to no one else, and certainly not to the universe in general.

I'm not really assuming anything and I believe you're reading something into the phrase which wasn't intended. If it helps I can revise it to "why they feel the work is important." Also you cut out part of my sentence: "...or what it offers."

- "smugly dismissive commentary"

So, you feel that smugly dismissive commentary is despicable, but smugly supportive commentary is okay? C'mon, don't you see how hypocritical this is?

I don't believe I have posted anything smug. Nor did I say it was despicable. I said "problems arise when..." And being dismissive is completely different from being supportive. It seems to me you are trying to twist the semantics, which I think only serves to sidetrack the discussion. The point is that when people make snarky remarks, that's when forum disucssions go bad.

- "as if they believe their own opinion is actually better than someone else's."

If you believe that your opinion is better than Henrik's, then your whole angle of attack falls apart. If you don't then this entire post should not have been written.

Again, it seems to me that you are trying to play semantics by splitting apart a single sentence which contained a single point. I have never said people shouldn't express opinions or debate them. The issue I am discussing is people expressing opinions in a manner that is dimssive of others. As in when they dismiss the possiblity that so-and-so's work could even possibly be of any importance.

It is one thing to dislike someone's opinion and statement of it, but it is something else entirely to be just as bad in the other direction. It is worse to think that you hold the high ground, when you are just standing on another mole hill.
Let's not get off track on straw man arguments. I would prefer to talk about the actual issue I brought up. There seems to be a consensus that when people make snarky and dismissive remarks directly at other forum members, that's not appropriate. So when people make snarky and dismissive remarks about artists not on this forum, why is that ok? If someone expresses admiration for an artist, and somone else responds by ridiculing that artist, why is that cool?

Dec 10, 2012 at 05:07 AM

artd
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p.14 #10 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

mpmendenhall wrote:
sebboh wrote:
artd wrote:
No, that actually is exactly the topic I am discussing. There is a difference between ridicule and critique, and I think that much should be evident. You can try and dress up ridicule all you want but that doesn't change it.

For example photos of Gursky's work with Spiderman or rodents Photoshopped in. That's just ridicule.

oh, come on. that's just good fun in a thread that could stand for some levity.

Furthermore, beyond simply adding levity, visual satire has an illustrious (or at least infamous) place in the history of art criticism and discussion. As a "photo is worth a thousand words," and major components of visual artistic works are things that cannot simply be reduced to a written treatise, such satire is an excellent way to use art to discuss art, allowing the full breadth of the medium's potential to be brought to bear on the conversation.

In the photoshopped Gurskys, one can find more than the crude ridicule of "durr, Gursky is a stoopid-head." On the most basic level is a generic criticism against a broad swathe of modern/abstract/minimalist art; that it has no subject, or content of interest, or is vacuous aside from arbitrary projections from the viewer. On a more subtle level, perhaps we have a commentary on how Rhein II is itself a photoshopped fiction.

Well, I will agree about the levity part. And you're right that satire has its place in criticism. I'm not sure if that was the case here but I'll go ahead and concede that perhaps the PS'd Gursky pics deserve the benefit of the doubt then in that regard

(Though I will say that I've waded through a fair share of Gursky posts in the past which indeed were nothing more elaborate than "Gursky is a stoopid-head.")

Dec 10, 2012 at 05:15 AM

artd
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p.14 #11 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

kosmoskatten wrote:
If I ever have a baby girl, her first name shall be Levity. If I ever have a son his name shall be Levi Ty(son). Should I be curs... ...blessed with twins they shall be named Hansel and Gretel and we will live happily ever after in a cake/confectionery house of ridiculous proportion. I have a sweet tooth and a foul mouth and will support my twins by working as a art critic and moonlight as a photographer, working for cotton candy for my kids to wear.

Then my levititious view of life and art shall shine through as a beacon of light, lighting up this Grimm world.

Seriously:

artd: I sense no malicious intent in your postings and I am sincerely sorry your post backfired on you.

The real problem arises when people are trying to establish some sort of baseline for right or wrong when discussing art, artists and random internet postings on a forum which gravitates towards levity.
I don't think you meant to put yourself in the high seat on this one and I for sure didn't either.
I am just not overly fond of being lectured on "appropriate" critiquing manners as I find that overly elitist and for me that will always be subject to grand levity.

I am also not sure of how many times I can fit levity into a single post.

Thanks kosmoskatten, I do see your point on this. The intent of my post was not to start a debate on appropriate critiquing, just that it seems to me that when famous artists come up for discussion there seems to be a fair bit of mockery that goes around and that sometimes that seems to be mocking the appreciators as well as the artists themselves. And that can cause a discussion to degenerate.

Dec 10, 2012 at 05:27 AM

kosmoskatten
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p.14 #12 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

artd: the debate is sometimes inevitable.

I can agree that dialing down the tone when it comes to critique is the civil way to go. For the most part I prefer when people are more elaborate in their critique. Sometimes however, when people pay an exorbitant amount of due to an artist and telling me how important he is (or has been) for photography and art in general I can choose to agree or disagree.

I can even choose to agree even though I am not overly fond of the work myself.

In a few instances there are artists who I perhaps don't get or just find their work so terribly boring or bad that I can only reduce my critique to a single word: crap.
I can dress it up and say: I am sorry, I don't see the quality in this, to me this is just pure crap and an insult to other artists. Sometimes a name weighs in more heavy than the work and I find that very crippling for art. Judge someone by their work and not (only) their track record or history. If you happen to be a public artist I still feel I can tell people I think it is pure crap rather than hold my tongue or just wrap it in "nice words".

I could of course say: "what is it that you like so much about this work? To me this is mediocre at best, and not on par with what I would see on a generic Fl*ckr page even".

Forum members and friends I am much more gentle with. I usually only post here when I have something nice to say (exception: Daido and Hasselblad Lunar) and usually I give praise to excellent work when posted by fellow members. If I don't like it I usually don't write. In this thread the OP was a bit too high strung for my liking and I did bite as I found his attitude offensive to the point of being uncivil and disrespectful himself, as indicated by the tone in his postings.

People sometimes subject themselves to self mockery - and indication of being at ease with themselves and that is a bandwagon I often jump on. Poking fun is fun - if all parties are game.

Dec 10, 2012 at 06:50 AM

RustyBug
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p.14 #13 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Exdsc wrote:
RustyBug wrote:

Thanks.

I find it kinda interesting that the image of mine isn't one that will garner any "oohs & ahhs" from many people (which isn't its intent).

What is the intent of your image?

Is it a study of blown highlights and lost detail?

While I wouldn't say that it was a study of blown highlights and lost detail ... the degree of contrast induced (in post) was intentional to render the more graphic presentation. As a recording medium, this would likely be ascribed as a poorly executed photograph. Rather, it is an interpretive piece (as requested of me by the museum), not a recording.

Part of the intent in the image was to portray a more graphical interpretive perspective. While the extreme example of this would be a silhouette, this one has not gone to that degree. The foreground sculpture "The Vessel" is a uniform gray. Taking it to a more contrasty level enabled a rendering of the yellow/brown that is coming from the warmer side lighting vs. the cooler overhead lighting that (blown) out the blue from the sky as reflected differently from the varying angles of construction involved.

The compare/contrast of the natural elements with the constructed elements extends to the compare and contrast that photography as a medium can be suited for either recording or interpretive use ... either an sooc capture, or a created interpreted manipulation.

I suppose that if anything it is a study of juxtaposition: natural & man made, steel, stone & wood, light & dark, formal & organic, large & small, near & distant, foreshortening & vanishing, highlight & shadow, reflectance & absorption, mimicking lines & opposing lines, abstract & whole, recording medium & artistic rendering medium, etc.

Like I mentioned before, it isn't my favorite piece to merely look at as a "pretty picture", but as an interpretive of Cedarhurst and its sculpture park setting, it is a bit more fitting. It represents a few of the above mentioned elements of "art", the natural setting for repose and offers some "speaking points" that one might be able to extract from the juxtapositions contained therein for advancing concepts.

The title "Aligned" is targeted at the more obvious alignment of the sculpture's structure, as well as the alignment of it with the more distant sculpture and the parallel alignments contained with the tree's trunk and branches. But, even more so ... the alignment of the above mentioned (et al) elements of composition and art are integral to how we as artists (painters, sculptors, photographers) must put them together ... i.e. alignment ... to present our message to our viewers. The degree to which we harmonize or contradict such things influences the message our viewer is able to extract from our efforts.

Not sure how well I've been able to explain some of the intent behind it ... but that is a "rough" idea of what was going through my head at the time. Ask me again tomorrow, and I might remember something else that I was striving for with it.

I've had some American sake and slept since then (poking fun @ self & the Daido video).

It was never intended to be "pretty pic" ... rather how much more you can find if you slow down and take the time to look and reflect at what is contained therein. Which, btw, is representative of how I feel about Cedarhurst ... there is so much more than meets the eye at first glance ... if one will look and be inclined toward some thought provocation ... they just might "Be Amazed" at what they can find.

To be honest, I really didn't expect anyone to "get it". I'm not sure if the museum did or not (I haven't spoken with them about it yet). They may just think it is something "different".

HTH

Edited on Dec 10, 2012 at 04:47 PM · View previous versions

Dec 10, 2012 at 03:57 PM

Bifurcator
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p.14 #14 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Come on be honest. You know that's the shot that accidentally actuated when you dropped your camera.

Dec 10, 2012 at 04:15 PM

RustyBug
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p.14 #15 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Yup ... tripped over my tripod and the TS-E tilted on my Kodak when it hit the ground. A kid with a cell phone could've done better.

A couple more "alignment" camera drops ...

B&W
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1083165/0?keyword=crossroads#10314073
This one is currently on display (through December) at Cedarhurst ... camera drops must be coming "en vogue" there.

Color play on ambient.
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1146408/0?keyword=crossroads#10938450

Dec 10, 2012 at 04:26 PM

kosmoskatten
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p.14 #16 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

I see that Exdsc was nitpicking on Rustybug's picture for technical reasons.

That's funny, considering the huge number of technical flaws inherent in Daido's Jpeg-pictures that he praises like it was the Lord's work. Also, considering how unimportant gear is to Exdsc I thought he might be more forgiving when it comes to the shortcomings of digital cameras.

Interesting how hollow some ideals can turn out to be when they are viewed from the other side - in the very same manner that said idealist views other peoples work...

Rustybug: love the second one.

Oh, and by the way Rustybug; I have checked out Exdsc's landscape photos in other threads.
I would not take hints as to technical merits or composition from him. Unless you are into false color, compression artifacts and blocked shadows. You are in my eyes a much more accomplished photographer.
But, that is just my opinion.

Edited on Dec 10, 2012 at 05:01 PM · View previous versions

Dec 10, 2012 at 04:50 PM

RustyBug
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p.14 #17 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Thanks kosmoskatten ... glad you like it.

kosmoskatten wrote:
I see that Exdsc was nitpicking on Rustybug's picture for technical reasons.

Which is "fair game" ... I know that it would be my "gut reaction" at first sight, as well.

Actually, it still is to a degree. I have to remind myself that it was a requested interpretive and not until I recall that which I espoused above, do I garner an increased appreciation for it. My own initial visceral response to it is ... "it sucks" ... until I start to think about it and remember what I aspired for it to have contained within it.

Kinda interesting to consider how one image can make a person's left brain "kick in", while a different image can make the right brain "kick in". Just takes different things to "jump start" the old gray matter for different people.

Edited on Dec 10, 2012 at 05:55 PM · View previous versions

Dec 10, 2012 at 04:56 PM

Bifurcator
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p.14 #18 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Yeah cool shots Rusty!

I mean so for total accidents with a tripod wrapped your broken legs and all.

Edited on Dec 10, 2012 at 05:18 PM · View previous versions

Dec 10, 2012 at 05:00 PM

RustyBug
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p.14 #19 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Thanks Bif,

Yeah ... I'm pretty lucky that way.

Edited on Dec 10, 2012 at 05:04 PM · View previous versions

Dec 10, 2012 at 05:01 PM

kosmoskatten
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p.14 #20 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Bif; while we are on a love streak; I really like your avatar.

PS

Rusty; edited my post while you were posting. Sorry for the bad timing.

Dec 10, 2012 at 05:03 PM

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