Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

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cogitech
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p.13 #1 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

I like it!

Dec 08, 2012 at 04:34 AM

RustyBug
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p.13 #2 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Thanks Paul.

Dec 08, 2012 at 05:49 AM

wayne seltzer
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p.13 #3 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

RustyBug wrote:
Exdsc ... Welcome back ... Sorry for the angst. I'm sure that accompanying your passions, lies value to be shared with your fellow FM'ers.

I'd still like to hear what it is about Daido that is compelling you to be drawn to him as strongly as you are.

Many years ago, I fell in love with AA images. I tried my hearts content to emulate AA shooting slide film, never getting anywhere really close. Then I took my first B&W class, where I was explained in the darkroom was how he processed his images to bring them to the way that he wanted them to be.

This came as a surprise to me, after I had previously believed it was "in camera". I immediately exclaimed to my instructor "HE CHEATS !!!" and had instant disdain for AA. It was several years later before I finally began to garner a better understanding of what AA was doing & why.

Earlier this year, I had an opportunity to study a body of his more famous works over a two month period. I also had an opportunity to speak briefly with his son ... and I told my story of how I had once said that his father "cheated" and asked him about some insight to his father on a personal level. There were other members of FM present that day as well.

I share this with you for two reasons ... one, to show you that back when I really didn't have an ounce of a brain

... even I was recoverable, given the chance and a little time. Second, if you do have an interest in my take on AA ... I'd gladly share it with you (my fellow FM'er) from my perspective / experience.

I mention this because, I do hope that you would understand that I truly do have a sincere interest to hear what it is about Daido that strikes such a chord with you. I'm rather curious as to how these iconic men compare and contrast and their impact on how people perceive such things. I figure if I liked AA, then didn't get AA, then got AA ... it is certainly plausible that I might come to "get" Daido, even if I didn't before. So it is for all who have embraced the passion for our craft.

Kent did you read my post?

Dec 08, 2012 at 05:55 AM

cogitech
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p.13 #4 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

RustyBug wrote:
Thanks Paul.

You are welcome. I am not just saying it to be nice, either. I very rarely do that.

My interpretation of it has something to do with the new world consuming the old world. The future consuming the past. It is more than that, though...

Whether or not you intended this, it is what I see/feel, and in this way it stands on its own.

Other than that, I like the angles, the contrast, the composition, the colour. It is pleasant to look at even without finding my own interpretation.

Dec 08, 2012 at 06:05 AM

RustyBug
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p.13 #5 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

wayne seltzer wrote
Kent did you read my post?

I did ... +1 @ a need to broaden historical knowledge of photographers. While I tend to study the impact of the images from a wide variety ... I am quite bad at remembering names to associate them to. Such was the case with Daido ... I had forgotten his name (TBI stuff). I have trouble mentally distinguishing Cartier from HSB from Haas from Daido without some kind of prompt these days (post TBI) to remind me.

Of the last few years, I've been a bit more focused on studying the effectiveness of painters, relative to their use of tonal values, scale, comp, etc. I tend to view photography as mechanical painting ... why I would take a photograph, has similar roots as to why a painter would paint. Simply, he wants to show or communicate a message to his viewer, i.e. "What's the point?" I am inclined to think that all the great photographers had this inherent to them ... even if we "don't get it" when we see their work ... they still had it "in them" as part of why they made the image.

Dec 08, 2012 at 02:30 PM

artd
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p.13 #6 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Dec 08, 2012 at 05:48 PM

artd
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p.13 #7 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Bifurcator wrote:
IMO it's OK to say someone's photograph sucks or even that their work in general sucks. If that's what is really meant then why pussyfoot around about it. Hopefully an explanation will follow tho! On the other hand I don't think it's possible to determine if the person has any potential talent or not so that probably falls into the personal attack category - which isn't cool for sure. Then again, saying that the person exhibits a high degree of talentlessness or is talentless in general based on some body of work is again fine. Sure, it's not diplomatic or kind but diplomacy and kindness may not be thought the correct mode of discussion at the time or under the particular circumstances. Tough love?? I've been told my work sucked! More than once even. In my case it made me want to become better - of course only after recovering the bits of my exploded ego.

It's when things go into the realm of ridicule that problems develop. It's one thing to say what you mean, but another thing to say what you mean and also that anyone who thinks differently must be stupid. There are certain words and phrases that -- particularly on an Internet forum -- are obviously meant to get under someone's skin.

Tough love? It sounds to me like you are talking about the case of a critique. Which is very different from a post meant to ridicule. My point is that often on such forums when famous photographers come up for discussion there are many people who offer up ridicule, not critiques. (To the credit of many posters in this thread, there have been a number of critiques as well, which is encouraging).

Dec 08, 2012 at 06:10 PM

Bifurcator
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p.13 #8 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

kosmoskatten wrote:
I still reserve the right to say that the current work of a "famous" or "acclaimed" photographer "sucks" - not implying that the whole body of work done of said photographer "sucks".

When it comes to fellow members or participants in various photo threads I would never bash anyone. If I really hated a photo I would simply not comment. But, when it comes to crap work being hailed as "important" and "something to aspire towards" by a celeb photographer I feel less of a douche throwing an axe into it, even if some people would feel insulted by it.

I do separate the work from the person. I.e. I can enjoy the work of a photographer who is a jerk as well as I can get bored by shots taken by someone I really like as a person.

artd wrote:
There we go again. "Crap work." That is the kind of inflammatory remark that sends these types of threads into degenerative spirals. It's a blatant statement of disrespect both to the artist (just because someone is famous does that mean they don't deserve respect?) and to posters who express admiration for the work.

If you truly hold the opinion that someone's work is crap, that's fine. You're entitled to it. No one is going to force you to try and understand why the work is important or what it offers. The problem arises when people go into forums and start posting "this is crap" or other smugly dismissive commentary about well known artists as if they believe their own opinion is actually better than someone else's. If someone "aspires" to a certain artist's work, who are you to tell them their aspiration is crap? There are obviously people in the word who have found value in the work, and no matter how many posts you make to the contrary, that will remain the case. What is the reason to belittle people for seeing artistic merit where you do not?

I see that politeness here is your key point. But the actual content of what you're saying artd, is completely wrong imo. A few points to the example:

1) As human beings our opinions (judgement calls) have to be more important than everyone else's. If it were otherwise no one could proceed to action as we'd all be waiting around on some mythical consensus. We are each ourselves the very center of our own realities and no reality can exist but from that self-center. Without our own center and perception reality itself seises to exist for us as indeed we ourselves would seise to exist. At least that's how it is on this current earth-plane. Maybe the 2012 Dec. 21st transformation into the 5th diminution will change all that but until it does we're stuck with this.

2) Why pussy-foot around? I f you think something sucks ass or is "crap" and you feel the need or desire to say so then have at. There is no good reason why not to say so plainly. What the word "crap" offends your virgin ears? And how about the people who are offended by you being offended by such? We're all adults here. That becomes an endless and needless cycle of ass-kissing no one needs to get entangled in. Just speak your mind. Hopefully if the person feels so strongly they will continue on with an explanation of why they think it sucks or is crap. That would add a practical and beneficial element to their expressive efforts. Such a consideration is usually what's lacking IMO with comments like these. The comments themselves are not and can not ever actually be "inflammatory" until the individual reader makes it so. And that's on the reader not the commenter.

3) if it's so obvious that "people in the world have found value in the work" then why do we need to restate or re-aknowledge that every time we comment? It's obvious after all! And it is obvious too, I agree. Thus one of the main drivers or motivations why someone might in the first place even think to say they think it "it sucks". They're expressing a departure from the norm. This outburst serves so many social and individual needs within a group and is quite important to the health of the group!

So I'm with KosmosKatten wholeheartedly! As I already previously stated, and here again, it's perfectly acceptable behavior and even required in some cases, to let others in your group (FM in this case) know you think something sucks or is crap! I wouldn't want it any other way! They only logical response I can see to such remarks is: "Please elaborate. Thanks."

artd wrote:
It's when things go into the realm of ridicule that problems develop. It's one thing to say what you mean, but another thing to say what you mean and also that anyone who thinks differently must be stupid.

Yeah, but that's an entirely different topic to what we're discussing here - unless of course you're bringing Ex's remarks and the in-fighting that occurred back into it.

Also ridicule is most often the prelude to critique. It just means the poster hasn't identified the mechanics of his dislike. That's fine as well. A simple nudge to "Please elaborate. Thanks" will in most cases cause them to examine the variables and bring it to a pointed topical critique.

Dec 08, 2012 at 06:27 PM

artd
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p.13 #9 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

cogitech wrote:
artd,

You are right. I apologize for saying "They both suck".

First, I should clarify that I was speaking specifically about the two photos in question (Moriyama's pink bathwater and Eggleston's green shower) not about their entire bodies of work. If you look back at the context, you'll see that this is the case. Also, if you look at my other posts, I always tried to specify "Moriyma's current colour work" as opposed to "Moriyama's work."

I should have said "they are equally unappealing and meaningless to me". This is something that I would feel comfortable saying to fellow FMers, but I do not often have the need or desire to say it, to be honest.

I would definitely not say "it sucks" to people around here because in some way, even if small, I feel I know many of the people around here. The sense of community changes things. It is only natural to afford members of a community more respect than strangers (whether the stranger is "famous" or not). Perhaps not "right", but I think many people do tend to do so.

None of us are perfect, and I apologize for being crass about the two photos that I found so unappealing.

I will not, however, apologize for any of my return fire towards the OP and I do not think he/she deserves a 3rd chance. I will click "hide me" on the OP and take away only what I have learned from some of the other contributors here, including yourself.

Nicely put and you demonstrate why I feel posters on this forum are often a step above the others

P.S. I am not on board with this whole "don't understand" nonsense. I "don't understand" the vast majority of visual artists, and I am the first to admit it; this doesn't prevent me from loving their work. Van Gogh, Dali, etc. I have no clue what was going on in their minds (and I don't need to know), but I love to look at their work.

I do not strive to understand the artists. This isn't the point of art to me, and if the artist goes about things with this intent then they are a failure from the start. Nihilists who attempt to project their own ego through some form of mass media. FAIL. The art should be about the subject(s), or simply about the art itself.

I strive to appreciate the art itself or learn something about the subject(s) of the art, and for that I do not necessarily have to understand the artist. All I need to do is interpret it. Interpretation is the biggest factor in art. Some art is more conducive to "obvious" interpretation. Other art approaches the "uninterpretable". Either way, it is all variably pleasant or unpleasant to look at regardless of "understanding" or "interpretation."

"Understanding" Moriyama would not allow me to enjoy interpreting or simply looking at his colour photos. Maybe he's wise. Maybe he's a nihilist pedophile. I don't know, and I don't care.

This reminds me of an odd experience I once had. My wife and I had a chance to hang some of our "art" at a local restaurant for a few weeks. Various types of stuff, including several landscapes that I had shot. One particular shot that many around here have seen (Distagon 21 Castle) caught the eye of someone at the opening and this person proceeded to question me on all sorts of aspects of the photo. Why did I choose to frame it so, why so much water in the foreground, what was I feeling/thinking when I took the shot... This person actually seemed to need to know all of this in order to enjoy the photo. This surprised me, and nervous laughter was all I could manage. Granted, some photos do have a story behind them, but some photos are just photos. I can enjoy both without understanding the artist.

(Note: The person in question had been to art school.)
Well, I put "understanding" in quotes since I feel this is a loaded term and subject to a whole mess of semantic chicanery.

But, I will remark that not all art is meant to be "pleasant" to look at. Some art is supposed to be visually bland or even ugly. It is not surprising that most photographers are looking for some type of visually engaging quality in art. I am the first to admit that is the kind of art I like best. But, not all artists are striving to make something visually engaging (or at least not at first glance), sometimes there is a different intent, and that is where I think the disconnect happens. Art is hugely diverse and a lot of it is made with different purposes in mind. What is good art and bad art, that is open to individual judgement. But I don't think it needs to be appealing to me for it to be successful.

I have seen a lot of art that I don't care for. Sometimes the work is so unengaging to me that I actually am curious as to why it is even considered worthy of display. So I may investigate further, and come to find out about the artist's intent. Sometimes it makes sense to me, and sometimes I find a new appreciation for the work and the artist's thinking. And sometimes I don't. And sometimes I'm genuinely surprised, and those are the moments I love best.

Dec 08, 2012 at 07:00 PM

kosmoskatten
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p.13 #10 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Bif: thanks for the support, you got the jest of what I was saying.

artd: I have no intention nor desire to apologize for the comments. I did not find my own posting offensive other than being bluntly outspoken about my view on said artist's work. Respect for the work? Sorry, I have seen my share of artists, young and old, established or not and I could not care less whether my taste regarding their work would offend them or not. I expect them to be mature enough to handle criticism. I don't care for pleasant or provocative as a defining criteria for art. Both can be equally fantastic or dreadful.

I could of course be more tactile - which I mostly am - and would probably not say it aloud in the presence of the artist. As for being more elaborate about criticism... ....well, we are not in art class now are we? I feel that if it is as unengaging as in this case I reserve the right to use the shorter form of Can't Really Appreciate (the) Photographs; crap. Also, I actually gave a brief explanation of how why I thought it was mediocre by comparing it to the average Fl*ckr poster.

I usually never mean to provoke but in the case of the OP I found he was forcing a point of view down our throats and in a form that I find condescending. Still, my opinion on Daido's recent work would not change and the difference is that had the OP been more tactile himself I probably would not have bothered to post my comment.

artd wrote:
"I have seen a lot of art that I don't care for. Sometimes the work is so unengaging to me that I actually am curious as to why it is even considered worthy of display. So I may investigate further, and come to find out about the artist's intent. Sometimes it makes sense to me, and sometimes I find a new appreciation for the work and the artist's thinking. And sometimes I don't. And sometimes I'm genuinely surprised, and those are the moments I love best."

This, I can fully agree with, to the letter.

Daido's former work might or might not mesmerize me. Since I have a huge backlog of photographers and artists that I am more interested in I feel that my desire to check him out in depth is virtually zero.

Dec 08, 2012 at 07:42 PM

artd
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p.13 #11 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Bifurcator wrote:
[artd wrote:
It's when things go into the realm of ridicule that problems develop. It's one thing to say what you mean, but another thing to say what you mean and also that anyone who thinks differently must be stupid.

Yeah, but that's an entirely different topic to what we're discussing here - unless of course you're bringing Ex's remarks and the in-fighting that occurred back into it.

Also ridicule is most often the prelude to critique. It just means the poster hasn't identified the mechanics of his dislike. That's fine as well. A simple nudge to "Please elaborate. Thanks" will in most cases cause them to examine the variables and bring it to a pointed topical critique.

No, that actually is exactly the topic I am discussing. There is a difference between ridicule and critique, and I think that much should be evident. You can try and dress up ridicule all you want but that doesn't change it.

For example photos of Gursky's work with Spiderman or rodents Photoshopped in. That's just ridicule.

I'm not talking about being critical or being blunt. I'm talking about people making smug posts that aim to demean other people or their work (be they forum members of famous artists).

Dec 08, 2012 at 07:53 PM

kosmoskatten
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p.13 #12 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

artd wrote:
"I'm talking about people making smug posts that aim to demean other people or their work (be they forum members of famous artists)."

You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else.

There is hopefully nothing smug in my post regarding Daido and when I critique Daido I do not critique or belittle the person, but the work. I distinguish between the two, perhaps you don't?

Dec 08, 2012 at 08:06 PM

carstenw
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p.13 #13 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

artd wrote:
If you truly hold the opinion that someone's work is crap, that's fine. You're entitled to it. No one is going to force you to try and understand why the work is important or what it offers. The problem arises when people go into forums and start posting "this is crap" or other smugly dismissive commentary about well known artists as if they believe their own opinion is actually better than someone else's.

Really, this comment is just as bad, but in the other direction. Let's have a look:

- "No one is going to force you to try and understand why the work is important"

Aren't you assuming that the work is important? Or at least, aren't you assuming that because some people think that the work is important, that this is actually the case? If you are going to assign Henrik's view of the work to a mere opinion, then realise that your feelings are also just opinions. There is no such thing as a fact there, and the work is only important to people who are of the opinion it is, and to no one else, and certainly not to the universe in general.

- "smugly dismissive commentary"

So, you feel that smugly dismissive commentary is despicable, but smugly supportive commentary is okay? C'mon, don't you see how hypocritical this is?

- "as if they believe their own opinion is actually better than someone else's."

If you believe that your opinion is better than Henrik's, then your whole angle of attack falls apart. If you don't then this entire post should not have been written.

---

It is one thing to dislike someone's opinion and statement of it, but it is something else entirely to be just as bad in the other direction. It is worse to think that you hold the high ground, when you are just standing on another mole hill.

Dec 08, 2012 at 08:11 PM

carstenw
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p.13 #14 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Bifurcator wrote:
I see that politeness here is your key point. But the actual content of what you're saying artd, is completely wrong imo.

Bif, quick summary: some of us grew up on Mr. Rogers Neighbourhood. Others grew up on Wile. E. Coyote...

I am all for everyone expressing things they way they want, with no one else wagging their loose fingers at them, as long as the line is drawn before personal attack.

Dec 08, 2012 at 08:20 PM

Bifurcator
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p.13 #15 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Yup!

And when my shots are belittled, attacked, or ridiculed the only thing I ask (and I only ask) is that they explain why they think so.

Of course I won't like it when/if that happens... But hey, life's occasionally a bitch. I'll get over it. And hopefully learn in the process.

Dec 08, 2012 at 08:23 PM

sebboh
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p.13 #16 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

artd wrote:
No, that actually is exactly the topic I am discussing. There is a difference between ridicule and critique, and I think that much should be evident. You can try and dress up ridicule all you want but that doesn't change it.

For example photos of Gursky's work with Spiderman or rodents Photoshopped in. That's just ridicule.

oh, come on. that's just good fun in a thread that could stand for some levity.

Dec 08, 2012 at 09:24 PM

carstenw
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p.13 #17 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

Levity is ridicule!!!

Dec 08, 2012 at 09:36 PM

mpmendenhall
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p.13 #18 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

sebboh wrote:
artd wrote:
No, that actually is exactly the topic I am discussing. There is a difference between ridicule and critique, and I think that much should be evident. You can try and dress up ridicule all you want but that doesn't change it.

For example photos of Gursky's work with Spiderman or rodents Photoshopped in. That's just ridicule.

oh, come on. that's just good fun in a thread that could stand for some levity.

Furthermore, beyond simply adding levity, visual satire has an illustrious (or at least infamous) place in the history of art criticism and discussion. As a "photo is worth a thousand words," and major components of visual artistic works are things that cannot simply be reduced to a written treatise, such satire is an excellent way to use art to discuss art, allowing the full breadth of the medium's potential to be brought to bear on the conversation.

In the photoshopped Gurskys, one can find more than the crude ridicule of "durr, Gursky is a stoopid-head." On the most basic level is a generic criticism against a broad swathe of modern/abstract/minimalist art; that it has no subject, or content of interest, or is vacuous aside from arbitrary projections from the viewer. On a more subtle level, perhaps we have a commentary on how Rhein II is itself a photoshopped fiction.

Dec 08, 2012 at 09:55 PM

sebboh
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p.13 #19 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

carstenw wrote:
Levity is ridicule!!!

but it is not mean spirited.

Dec 08, 2012 at 10:02 PM

kosmoskatten
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p.13 #20 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

If I ever have a baby girl, her first name shall be Levity. If I ever have a son his name shall be Levi Ty(son). Should I be curs... ...blessed with twins they shall be named Hansel and Gretel and we will live happily ever after in a cake/confectionery house of ridiculous proportion. I have a sweet tooth and a foul mouth and will support my twins by working as a art critic and moonlight as a photographer, working for cotton candy for my kids to wear.

Then my levititious view of life and art shall shine through as a beacon of light, lighting up this Grimm world.

Seriously:

artd: I sense no malicious intent in your postings and I am sincerely sorry your post backfired on you.

The real problem arises when people are trying to establish some sort of baseline for right or wrong when discussing art, artists and random internet postings on a forum which gravitates towards levity.
I don't think you meant to put yourself in the high seat on this one and I for sure didn't either.
I am just not overly fond of being lectured on "appropriate" critiquing manners as I find that overly elitist and for me that will always be subject to grand levity.

I am also not sure of how many times I can fit levity into a single post.

Dec 08, 2012 at 10:38 PM

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