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Archive 2012 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S

  
 
Mirek Elsner
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p.11 #1 · p.11 #1 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


it's called technophilia and derives from a fetishisation of everything and anything that is technological (and photography is a technological medium). It is using a lens to take photographs that serve as proof to how good that lens is - as corroboration and justification - a tautology of very tired clichés. It seems to me that that's what happens in forums like this most of the time (although there are much worse!). It's the fetishisation of the camera or the lens and an almost complete blockage of anything and everything that doesn't conform to this gospel of how 'a Zeiss will...Show more

Photography has room for all; for technophiles, artists and everyone in between. Photography is for both right brained and left brained and from all the friction I have seen in forums I believe that it is best to keep the left brained and right brained discussions separate.

It looks like the technophiles are able to maintain civilized and highly informative forum, but I have yet to find quality forum about artistic matters of photography.



Dec 06, 2012 at 07:58 PM
cogitech
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p.11 #2 · p.11 #2 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


Mirek Elsner wrote:
Photography has room for all; for technophiles, artists and everyone in between. Photography is for both right brained and left brained and from all the friction I have seen in forums I believe that it is best to keep the left brained and right brained discussions separate.

It looks like the technophiles are able to maintain civilized and highly informative forum, but I have yet to find quality forum about artistic matters of photography.


+1



Dec 06, 2012 at 08:08 PM
sebboh
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p.11 #3 · p.11 #3 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


carstenw wrote:
Man, I have to stop letting myself get dragged into these spats. It just leads nowhere.

My new rule for myself: if someone seriously ticks me off and I can't recall having seen any photos which I liked from that person, or any seriously helpful actions towards others in the past, I click "Hide Me" on that person.


i don't really understand the value of the hide me button. it's easy to ignore people on the internet, and i have to imagine it must make threads involving hidden people confusing? besides, every once in a while even the biggest a$$hole says something interesting/worthwhile.

ayler wrote:
I come here a bit more often than what my tally of posts would suggest, looking for specific info about certain 'alternative' lenses and set-ups - I post very occasionally. Although I don't particularly care for 99% of the photography posted by 'alternative' FM members (the 'non-alternative' forums interest me even less), I do find it useful and entertaining, and relevant in a certain way.


thanks for reading list! i always appreciate seeing what other people think is useful, worthwhile, or beautiful.

out of curiosity due to your careful avoidance (unless i missed it), what type of photography do you do and what kind of photography do you particularly appreciate? it's always nice to have perspective.



Dec 06, 2012 at 08:10 PM
ayler
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p.11 #4 · p.11 #4 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


Mirek Elsner wrote:
Photography has room for all; for technophiles, artists and everyone in between. Photography is for both right brained and left brained and from all the friction I have seen in forums I believe that it is best to keep the left brained and right brained discussions separate.

It looks like the technophiles are able to maintain civilized and highly informative forum, but I have yet to find quality forum about artistic matters of photography.


Eh? In what ways wasn't I being civilised? Apparently this highly civilised forum collapses a bit into uncivilised riposting when the matter is art and not tech. Must be the art and its demeaning properties. Or could it be that it's civilised at times and not so much at others, depending on the subject? The only less civilised bits I've seen were travelling forth and back between the OP and some of the other posters who happened to disagree. As to keeping left and right separate, not really, as it's all about the clash of the two...



Dec 06, 2012 at 08:13 PM
RustyBug
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p.11 #5 · p.11 #5 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


ayler wrote:
As to keeping left and right separate, not really, as it's all about the clash of the two...


Mine have been waging war with each other ever since I picked up a camera.




Dec 06, 2012 at 08:16 PM
ayler
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p.11 #6 · p.11 #6 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


sebboh wrote:
i don't really understand the value of the hide me button. it's easy to ignore people on the internet, and i have to imagine it must make threads involving hidden people confusing? besides, every once in a while even the biggest a$$hole says something interesting/worthwhile.

thanks for reading list! i always appreciate seeing what other people think is useful, worthwhile, or beautiful.

out of curiosity due to your careful avoidance (unless i missed it), what type of photography do you do and what kind of photography do you particularly appreciate? it's always nice to have perspective.


It wasn't about the photography I do, but the photography I appreciate, as the discussion is about the merits of what the OP and the other participants appreciate or not - I provide a few examples of the kinds (not kind) of photography, or rather, the bodies of work I appreciate. I don't really have to expound on what I do to talk about what I appreciate, but for the curious I do work a lot with museum collections and am currently working on a project about modernism.



Dec 06, 2012 at 08:21 PM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.11 #7 · p.11 #7 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


I like his documentary approach and style. Some of the photos have a message that I can fathom, some not, but he stays at a comfortable arm's length distance from the pixel peeping attitudes of this and most other camera fora on the internet, which in itself has some value. I wouldn't mind having a couple of his photos on my wall

Great video. Thanks for the link.



Dec 06, 2012 at 09:09 PM
Spyro P.
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p.11 #8 · p.11 #8 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


by the way I've been a big fan o moriyama pretty much since I started photography, and a whole bunch of other japanese photographers (all time fav is Hiroh Kikai)
Same for Andreas Gursky whose exhibition in melbourne I missed in 2008

I always had a hard time explaining why I liked their stuff so much, and to be honest, I dont see the point.
It feels like trying to explain why I like spaghetti... I just do.
So when it comes to looking at photography, I'll take moriyama and gursky. When it comes to talking about photography, I prefer lenses.



Dec 06, 2012 at 09:44 PM
akul
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p.11 #9 · p.11 #9 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


I did not find the recent works related to the documentary to be as strong as what I have seen from him in the past. Powerful full page monochrome super grainy prints of desolate urban scape and its inhabitants screamed out of paper with visual violence. Absolutely stood out from any other photos on the same issues of Nippon Camera, or Asahi Camera. ( In the 80's) As if there were some addictive scent to those photos. Once I saw them, those images were forever burned into my retna. It was not a 'technique' I was drawn to. It was the tactile experience I got from purely a visual, two dimensional material. That was my encounter with Moriyama Daido's works. So, why do I like his work? I have no idea.


Dec 06, 2012 at 10:25 PM
RustyBug
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p.11 #10 · p.11 #10 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
I like his documentary approach and style. Some of the photos have a message that I can fathom, some not


Spyro P. wrote:
I always had a hard time explaining why I liked their stuff so much, and to be honest, I dont see the point.
It feels like trying to explain why I like spaghetti... I just do.


akul wrote:
So, why do I like his work? I have no idea.


Honest, civil and not condescending at those who "don't get it". Must be from seasoned FM'ers ... I'm good with that.



Dec 06, 2012 at 11:22 PM
Mirek Elsner
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p.11 #11 · p.11 #11 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


ayler wrote:
As to keeping left and right separate, not really, as it's all about the clash of the two...


Most people are left OR right.



Dec 06, 2012 at 11:39 PM
Spyro P.
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p.11 #12 · p.11 #12 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


RustyBug wrote:
Honest, civil and not condescending at those who "don't get it".


I have exactly zero problems with people who dont get it, especially since I cant explain what it is exactly that "I get"

I realised a long time ago that making photos is one thing that requires some kind of talent, but talking about photos and particularly about art in photography, without sounding like a complete knob, requires an entirely different talent altogether. Which I dont have.

Very rarely you will find people who are good at both, which is another reason why those threads where photographers talk about art usually turn to sh!t really quickly



Dec 07, 2012 at 12:02 AM
carstenw
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p.11 #13 · p.11 #13 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


sebboh wrote:
i don't really understand the value of the hide me button. it's easy to ignore people on the internet, and i have to imagine it must make threads involving hidden people confusing? besides, every once in a while even the biggest a$$hole says something interesting/worthwhile.


Sure, but everyone has a limit for how much manure they are willing to sort through to get that one nugget of gold. I find that with time my willingness is approaching zero. If people are not willing to discuss things in a civil manner (by this I mean refraining from pointless and baseless insults; I don't mind it when the discussion gets heated), and if they are not willing to contribute equal amounts of photos or wisdom and opinions to the forum, I am unwilling to read them, regardless of how brilliant they might be. You may be willing to read through all the swill in the search for that one brilliant quip, that is your choice.



Dec 07, 2012 at 03:58 AM
carstenw
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p.11 #14 · p.11 #14 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


ayler wrote:
As to keeping left and right separate, not really, as it's all about the clash of the two...


Well no, not at all, really. Not even close.

We all enjoy different artists here, and we all enjoy different equipment. We all use both left and right hemispheres, to various extents. The clash here is primarily between people who don't happen to appreciate Moriyama (which is of course fine; no one has to like any particular artist) and people who just don't want to accept that as a valid position.

I appreciate your reading list, but to be honest, you come across as if you are shoehorning this discussion into an old conflict mould you are carrying around with you, and not really looking at what was actually said here. The whole Leica/Zeiss thing was something which only you brought up, for example, and the left-right hemisphere controversy is not something either which is relevant here, however interesting.



Dec 07, 2012 at 04:11 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.11 #15 · p.11 #15 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


Interesting reactions in this thread. Thanks for posting this video which introduced me to this artist whose work I was not familiar with. Obviously I need to broaden my knowledge of great photographers in history. Daido's style of blur, grain, and edgy shadows suits his subject matter of the erotic and seedy parts of city life, prostitutes, etc. His famous dog shot with rabid crazed look seems to symbolize his inner tortured soul and is in common with a few of his other portraits of a young boy and another image of a man's contorted and grimicing face. I like his TormeI Expressway image the best and a few others. His Tights images are well done sensual shapes kind of like Weston and his peppers.
His stuff was avant-garde and I can see is not everyone's cup of tea, but you have to respect his work and accomplishments/status in photography.
Even though I am an engineer, like technical gear talk, and appreciate the renderings of Zeiss and Leica lenses, my artsy side appreciates creative work and the avant-garde.
Maybe someone can start a thread in which everyone posts a list of their favorite photographers.



Dec 07, 2012 at 04:38 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.11 #16 · p.11 #16 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


BTW, I saw it mentioned that he was influenced by William Klein.


Dec 07, 2012 at 04:43 AM
S Dilworth
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p.11 #17 · p.11 #17 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


He has said Klein’s photos shocked him into taking up a camera. The current Tate Modern exhibition pairs Klein and Daido.

I think there are millions of ‘wannabe Daidos’, as ayler puts it, simply because his photos strike a chord with many people (especially young people). The vast majority of those people resonate with the basic aesthetic of are-bure-bokeh (rough, blurred, and out of focus) rather than any highfaluting philosophy behind it all.

There’s just something very visceral about edgy street scenes full of speed and motion. Printed large enough, the grainy off-kilter photos can be pretty intense to come face-to-face with in a gallery. They induce feelings of displacement, the contradictions of both feeling at home in the anonymous city and feeling rootless, the daily low-level panic of unfulfilled potential and desires, etc. – familiar themes for many people today. Because these themes are still highly relevant today, I think Daido’s appeal will not fade so easily. The art world can do what it wants, but new photographers will always want to emulate this, much as they still want to emulate Ansel Adams and HCB.

That’s what I like about Daido, actually. It’s only as conceptual as you make it. When I first came across his work I liked it at first glance, knowing nothing about it. Only later did I learn that in the sixties there was a short-lived Japanese magazine called Provoke, which pushed this unsettling aesthetic at a time when art critics expected to understand the photographs they looked at. Given the social context (the usual sixties stuff, breakdown of traditional mores, shaking off of postwar austerity, etc.), this magazine and its aesthetic signposted the way for a new generation of Japanese photographers eager for change. They lapped it up.

Curiously, given the current trend for printing very large, those Japanese photographers in the sixties and seventies didn’t originally shoot with the intention to print large, or make standalone prints at all, but rather photo-books. Photo-books were big in Japan (still are, I guess, but they’re big everywhere now). Daido still says he prefers them to fine prints. They encourage a different way of looking at photographs, where individual photos are subsumed by the overall body of work.

Spyro P. wrote:
I realised a long time ago that making photos is one thing that requires some kind of talent, but talking about photos and particularly about art in photography, without sounding like a complete knob, requires an entirely different talent altogether.


Eggleston would appear to agree with you, in this wonderful chat with director Michael Almereyda (from the William Eggleston in the Real World documentary I mentioned earlier).



Dec 07, 2012 at 05:11 AM
carstenw
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p.11 #18 · p.11 #18 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


Very interesting commentary, S., thanks for that.


Dec 07, 2012 at 05:22 AM
ayler
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p.11 #19 · p.11 #19 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


Mirek Elsner wrote:
Most people are left OR right.


That wasn't the point I was trying to make, it wasn't to be taken literally, but symbolically. Apologies if it didn't come out like that. Clashing left and right, putting art and industry on the same platform, bringing the aesthetic into the realm of formal discussions, and so on, that's what matters in this respect, and the proof of this is that, although with some difficulties, this is one of the more interesting threads here, precisely because we're not just confining discussion to one realm of what the photographic medium's supposed to be about.



Dec 07, 2012 at 05:37 AM
ayler
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p.11 #20 · p.11 #20 · Diado Moriyama shooting jpg with a P&S


carstenw wrote:
Well no, not at all, really. Not even close.

We all enjoy different artists here, and we all enjoy different equipment. We all use both left and right hemispheres, to various extents. The clash here is primarily between people who don't happen to appreciate Moriyama (which is of course fine; no one has to like any particular artist) and people who just don't want to accept that as a valid position.

I appreciate your reading list, but to be honest, you come across as if you are shoehorning this discussion into an old conflict mould you are carrying around with you, and
...Show more

As I've stated, it's not to be taken literally. Clashing thing is what makes revolutionary fire, as a famous political philosopher once said.

And I don't understand what point you are trying to make. The discussion started in a quite polarised fashion, with either canonisation or outright dismissal, and has progressed in such a way as to give notice to those who don't like Daido's work that maybe they should spend a bit of time trying to understand it and, perhaps, to those who do like it unconditionally that they should try to explain it and not canonise it, that's all. As I said previously, I'm in the middle, as I don't particularly care for his work, but I think people should see it as a toolbox and try to figure what it could do for them - make a bit of an effort. If at the end of that process they still don't like it fine; he's no mandatory genius and no one's obliged to see him like that.

On your other point, I don't think I'm shoehorning anything, quite the opposite. I've stated before that I think this forum is quite narrow in its spectrum and quite formalist, not least because it's a gear forum; so it's good to open up the discussion sometimes to stuff that's outside that narrow realm. I provided a list of things I like and texts I've read precisely because the OP wasn't coming forth with explanations and a list of stuff, as it had been requested, and also to support my claims and to try to open up the discussion a bit. Take it or leave it, as I said, you don't have to go looking for anything you don't want to or read anything on that list. As for the Leica/Zeiss mention, it's a term of comparison in the context of an argument, but it seems to have touched a raw nerve somewhere with some people. As I said, Leica and Carl Zeiss have been important agents in the history of photography and have shaped it immeasurably, particularly Leica, so this is not a form of reversed snobbery - I do not use or carry a P&S, BTW, and I'm no Daido wannabe...



Dec 07, 2012 at 06:06 AM
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