gdanmitchell wrote:
That's a funny argument, since a) yes, f/1.8 is different than a smaller aperture and b) the range and flexibility of a zoom is different than that of a single prime. I guess I could write that the f/1.8 lens doesn't work nearly as well at 18mm... ;-)
I've counseled a number of people who were starting out with DSLRs to forego the old-school advice to "start with a single prime and suffer for a while,".....
Even funnier is that we were recommending the 18-55 IS kit lens AND the 50mm 1.8.
You might also keep your eyes open for in-store clearance items at the large electronics stores, particularly previous version models. I recently came across a T2I body in bubble wrap (no box, manuals, batt charger, etc.) marked at $280. I spoke to the manager and we agreed on $200. Added a $10 charger from Amazon, and that allowed me to upgrade my loaner camera for when a friend or family member goes out kayaking on a bayou with me and to give my old loaner, a 350D, to my 9 old grandson.
Let me suggest a more radical alternative and look at some of the compact cameras. There are some nice micro 4/3rd and APC sensor cameras that are much easier to carry around and as a result more likely to be used. If you look you can get a Pana GX-1 kit for under $500.
skibum5 wrote:
Even funnier is that we were recommending the 18-55 IS kit lens AND the 50mm 1.8.
Yeah, sometimes I get going and don't know when to stop. Somewhere in here I thought I had read a recommendation for something other than the kit zoom - some pro-style bodies, better lenses, etc. Was that not the case?
Hopefully the principles about such purchases are worth considering in any case.
I recommend against the 50mm prime as a starting lens, whether on its own or with a kit zoom, for a range of reasons that I've written about before:
CW100 wrote:
funny but the 18-55IS and 50mm 1.8 are actually good inexpensive lens for beginning photographers
I agree.
If you can put together a T2I with the 18-55IS and a camera bag to start with, then add a 50-250IS for range, and later a 50 1.8 for low light and portraits, one can go a long way with that kit for reasonable money. To me that's a perfect starter kit without getting in to $300+ lenses.
Have you looked at a rebel using the canon loyalty program? I generally recommend to a new dslr owner to buy used and you can score a great deal with the clp just find a broken canon body on craigslist etc for pennies and trade that in. Saves a little more cash or may be able to buy newer tech with the funds you have...obviously the remainder should go into a extra lens or two. The kit 18-55 is pretty good IMHO for a beginner, the 50 1.8 is a steal of a deal, and if you can afford it the 55-250 is a great starter telephoto and should cover just about anything the new photographer will want to shoot.
gdanmitchell wrote:
Yeah, sometimes I get going and don't know when to stop. Somewhere in here I thought I had read a recommendation for something other than the kit zoom - some pro-style bodies, better lenses, etc. Was that not the case?
Hopefully the principles about such purchases are worth considering in any case.
I recommend against the 50mm prime as a starting lens, whether on its own or with a kit zoom, for a range of reasons that I've written about before:
The likelihood that a beginner will want to use a 50 mm prime on a 1.6x crop camera is very small.
It is much more likely that the next she will want after the kit zoom is something else and we have no clue what it will be. But the likelihood for any of these cases is greater than a 50mm f/1.8 IMO:
I'm with you on this, and especially on the part about us having "no clue" about where he/she will go next. That is precisely what I've found as I've watched a number of first-time DSLR buyers move along whatever their path turns out to be. They only discover the nature and level of their interest by shooting - they virtually never actually know until they have done that for a while. This is precisely the reason that I recommend the most general, flexible, and inexpensive (though decently functional) gear at first.
Speaking in terms of orientation to photography rather than types of gear, here are some of the paths that new DSLR shooters might find themselves on:
- Love the cropped sensor camera plus the kit zoom and don't need or want anything else. Their use is relatively informal, and they generally share photos online, in email, or occasionally with a small, casual print made on their regular letter-size inkjet printer. Frankly, I'd be willing to bet lunch that the majority of the buyers of entry-level DSLRs end up in this category and the one that follows.
- Discover that the DSLR isn't quite as great for them in the long run once the romance of having a "real" camera wears off. The camera ends up in the closet, they go back to using the iPhone or a P&S, perhaps after a year or so. This group is larger by percentage than most of us realize.
- Loves the entry-level DSLR but learns through their shooting that there are certain things that are important to them that they cannot do with the kit lens. Most often this probably means they need a longer zoom, and for many the EFS 55-250 works out beautifully for photos of the kids' soccer/little league game or for some casual wildlife shots while on vacation. For a few - perhaps hiking and backpacking enthusiasts - an ultra-wide zoom fits the bill.
- The entry-level DSLR serves as the port of entry for a new and more serious interest in photography and the interest leads to some specialization - landscape, wildlife, portraits, events, sports, etc. As the new photographer shoots more with the entry-level camera, he/she sees the specialized interest developing and begins to understand more clearly the specific nature of the chosen form(s) of photography and how particular gear choices might help. At this point he/she might look at more specialized lenses - e.g. certain primes, better zooms, macro, etc - and my even begin to consider an upgrade body that fits his/her needs.
Dan
alundeb wrote:
I am all with you on this one, Dan.
The likelihood that a beginner will want to use a 50 mm prime on a 1.6x crop camera is very small.
It is much more likely that the next she will want after the kit zoom is something else and we have no clue what it will be. But the likelihood for any of these cases is greater than a 50mm f/1.8 IMO:
Might warn against the 75-300 lens. It is often found cheaper that the 50-250IS, but the quality doesn't compare, plus it's not IS. The 70-300IS models are higher end, but priced that way.
Nov 19, 2012 at 01:15 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
Let me offer a different perspective. Dan and alundeb have argued for a Rebel and a kit lens for what they perceive as a new user. From the original post, I'm not sure that makes sense. The OP said that the gift recipient is in junior high and has been taking classes for 2 years and has been shooting B & W film. Given this description the recipient might have gained lots of experience, is quite talented, and has already developed a sense of their style of photography and what they like to shoot or maybe had just played around with the camera a bit and sort of knows how it works or anything in between. I would suggest that the OP sit down with the recipient and go through her photos with her and get a sense of where she is at with photography. Starting out with B & W film can be a great way to learn photography and if the class was good after 2 years she might have developed a lot of skills. On the other hand if the class is not so good she might be a total beginner. You might also find that she loves to shoot B & W (in which case I wouldn't suggest buying her a DSLR at all, but rather let her keep shooting film and get her some nice film gear and a case of film and dark room equipment so she can develop it).
If she does want to shoot digital, then I would in this case think twice before buying her a Rebel. She has shot with a film camera for a couple of years. It very likely has a way better viewfinder than a Rebel and this may be a huge step back for her and might make her hate the camera (it is exactly what I hated about the Rebel I started with and my hatred would have been stronger if I was used to using a film SLR). With the tight budget it would be hard to get a camera with a decent viewfinder, but if you find the right deal perhaps a 1D MKII with something like the 28-70 f/3.5-4.5 MKII would just fit. The lens can be had for $75 and it is a very nice little lens and the price of the 1D MKII has dropped substantially lately.
Very constructive and sensible direction, Steve. I agree with you and want to clarify that I didn't specifically recommend a rebel camera, I thought that was a given, within the budget and DSLR "box". What I was saying was that a 50 mm f/1.8 lens is not likely to be of much interest, and is doesn't make much sense to buy it purely because the lens is a prime with good value and just wider aperture that what is already available within the kit lens.
People are different, and while some people appreciate the best tools even if they are used, some others would see it as strange to receive a used camera as this kind of gift.
I don't mean to argue. But as someone who loved my $8,000 full frame Canin 1DsII, I love the Canon T4i every bit as much.
In fact, I think the T4i is a better camera than the 1DsII in almost every way, except build and full frame. I liked my 20D, 30D, 40D, 1DX. The T4i and 1DsII are my favorite camera ever
As a 20+ year pro, I don't see the T4i as much of a compromise. At the price, it wins more points with me than the 1DX which I had earlier this year. I would be happy to use it as a "pro" camera for everything except hard core sports and ISO 6400+
In truth, the current Rebels are, in almost all ways, far more capable cameras than the typical starter SLRs from back in the film era. (In terms of their image quality potential, there is actually very little to differentiate them from current high-end cropped-sensor DSLRs either.) Few, if any, of us who started at about the age of the potential "giftee" mentioned in this thread began with gear that even approached the capabilities of current entry-level cameras and entry-level kit lenses.
I don't think image quality differences are important at all between the cameras in question.
It is all about how the camera is used, and the viewfinder and liveview displays are going to make a difference. Compared to most old serious cameras, the Rebel viewfinders are a step back.
A large viewfinder or a tiltable LCD are really appreciable features.
gdanmitchell wrote:
Yeah, sometimes I get going and don't know when to stop. Somewhere in here I thought I had read a recommendation for something other than the kit zoom - some pro-style bodies, better lenses, etc. Was that not the case?
Hopefully the principles about such purchases are worth considering in any case.
I recommend against the 50mm prime as a starting lens, whether on its own or with a kit zoom, for a range of reasons that I've written about before:
me:
"Maybe a used 18-55 IS kit lens (which actually is VERY sharp and you can do quite a lot with that lens) and the 50 1.8 if she might want some low DOF to play around with."
others:
"I would suggest a t2i with kit lens and 50 1.8."
"I agree with Roger here." [regarding the quote just above]
"T2i or t3i with 18-55 IS kit lens and 50 1.8"
"I totally agree with recommending both the 50mm 1.8 and the 18-55mm IS kit lens. "
"You can find a new T4i body on the Buy & Sell here for $600. You can probably pick up the 18-55 kit lens for $60.... ....You can still get the 50 1.8 for $70 used instead to save money "
you:
long rant about how the kit lens is the one to get 18-55 and how people need to stop pushing starting prime only
(and then taking it farther and saying she she not even get a 50 1.8 in addition, which is where I also severely break part with your advice, I get what you are saying about the 18-55 and why it is sensible, but to advise to absolutely not also get a 50mm 1.8??)
alundeb wrote:
Very constructive and sensible direction, Steve. I agree with you and want to clarify that I didn't specifically recommend a rebel camera, I thought that was a given, within the budget and DSLR "box". What I was saying was that a 50 mm f/1.8 lens is not likely to be of much interest, and is doesn't make much sense to buy it purely because the lens is a prime with good value and just wider aperture that what is already available within the kit lens.
People are different, and while some people appreciate the best tools even if they are used, some others would see it as strange to receive a used camera as this kind of gift. ...Show more →
All I know is I see many people in her scenario who seem like to also experiment and play around with low DOF, she may already be doing that with school or borrowed equipment perhaps or maybe her friends are and even if none of that is true yet or at all well how would you ever find out whether you have a need for that and like that if you never get to see f/1.8 vs f/5?? (granted low DOF may have become something a bit overdone in this day and age but it is not ALL bad either) And what less expensive way is there to test out low DOF? And it does happen that at times you just need a bit more shutter speed?
Also I know many people who found 50mm less used on FF than 24mm or 35mm or 70mm or 85mm so I don't get all the talk about how 50mm was made for FF and not for APS-C and it is a useless focal length on APS-C.
Who knows maybe she hates it, but it could be sold off for little loss. It's not a big expense purchase.
I suppose it would not hurt to sort of probe her about what she is doing and what her some day photography wishes and goals are and maybe you'll get the impression she'd love a 50mm for sure or one that might hint she'd never use it.
Its always a difficult question. I think several people have given thoughtful responses. My only addition is, if it is a family member, keep it in the same system so you can share lenses (unless you want to preclude that )
I'm a little bit in the same boat. Just after I sold a t3i body that I got as part of a package from B&H (great deal actually - pro9000ii, t3i kit, 55-250, bag and sd card for under $989 with a $400 rebate), my son announced that he wanted a real dslr. He's been shooting with my Nex 5N and has placed in a couple of local photo competitions in his age group. I thought he was happy with the Sony, but now I have to consider the same issues - what to get a budding 10 year old photographer ...
