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Archive 2012 · Canon, please make better sensors...
  
 
samwise
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Canon, please make better sensors...


snapsy wrote:
How does one properly expose an image for scene that has 'x' stops of dynamic range but the camera's sensor can only render 'x-4' stops, assuming they can't use multiple exposures and the brightest areas can't easily be accommodated with a GND?


I don't hate dynamic range lol... I know that there are lots of improvements to be made in the future here.... but I personally can't see the difference between the Nikon and Canon sensor DR making any difference in the real world photography if you properly expose an image... I would take the 1Dx IQ-wise over anything Nikon unless someone can convince me otherwise



Nov 10, 2012 at 02:37 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Canon, please make better sensors...


samwise wrote:
I don't hate dynamic range lol... I know that there are lots of improvements to be made in the future here.... but I personally can't see the difference between the Nikon and Canon sensor DR making any difference in the real world photography if you properly expose an image... I would take the 1Dx IQ-wise over anything Nikon unless someone can convince me otherwise


Again, how do you properly expose an image whose dynamic range exceeds the capabilities of a sensor?



Nov 10, 2012 at 02:46 AM
mttran
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Meter one side, clip it the other and pray in post


Nov 10, 2012 at 03:21 AM
chez
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Canon, please make better sensors...


snapsy wrote:
Again, how do you properly expose an image whose dynamic range exceeds the capabilities of a sensor?


Yep, that's the fallacy in saying all you need to do is expose properly...whatever that really means. Maybe in a studio environment where you might have control of your lighting...but anywhere outside you constantly need to make decisions on what part of the scene is most important and what part can I let go dark or blow out. Better dynamic range just allows more leeway in these circumstances.



Nov 10, 2012 at 03:30 AM
samwise
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Canon, please make better sensors...


shoot with Nikon because they don't have that problem? It would be awesome to have a camera that could expose the full dynamic range of a scene of course, not sure if the difference between a Canon and Nikon at this point is noteworthy in real life post production for my work is all im saying, sorry if that was unclear. Do you think it is for your work? Maybe I just haven't seen any real life examples of where the D800 pulls out a way better image in the same scene.


Nov 10, 2012 at 03:40 AM
samwise
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Also I should note I work mainly with people and I usually have the flexibility of putting them where I want to where the light and background is best, or I can move around them to find the better light without scaring them away haha. I guess to some of you who work with wildlife, better DR in a sensor would mean a lot more flexibility like you are saying chez... I would love to shoot wildlife one day, by the time I have enough money to spend on a 500L or 600L I am sure we will have the improvements you guys are talking about lol


Nov 10, 2012 at 03:49 AM
snapsy
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Canon, please make better sensors...


samwise wrote:
shoot with Nikon because they don't have that problem? It would be awesome to have a camera that could expose the full dynamic range of a scene of course, not sure if the difference between a Canon and Nikon at this point is noteworthy in real life post production for my work is all im saying, sorry if that was unclear. Do you think it is for your work? Maybe I just haven't seen any real life examples of where the D800 pulls out a way better image in the same scene.


All cameras have the problem naturally, just that some get you closer to a usable solution than others. The Sony/Nikon sensors get you 2 1/2 stops closer, or more like 3 1/2 stops when you account for the lack of banding.

Here is a Canon vs Nikon DR comparison using some setup shots:
http://testcams.com/blog/2011/05/03/nikon-dx-vs-canon-aps-c-dynamic-range/

And here are two Nikon DR examples in real shots
D7000 landscape (orig)
D7000 landscape (after PP)

D5100 Cityscape (orig)
D5100 Cityscape (after PP)



Nov 10, 2012 at 04:02 AM
Yohan Pamudji
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Canon, please make better sensors...


samwise wrote:
Also I should note I work mainly with people and I usually have the flexibility of putting them where I want to where the light and background is best, or I can move around them to find the better light without scaring them away haha. I guess to some of you who work with wildlife, better DR in a sensor would mean a lot more flexibility like you are saying chez... I would love to shoot wildlife one day, by the time I have enough money to spend on a 500L or 600L I am sure we will have the
...Show more

In controlled lighting situations DR isn't typically an issue. Depending on what/how people shoot sometimes it's just not possible to get the shot exactly right in camera no matter how "correctly" you expose. It's for those times that having a pliable RAW file with plenty of room to bend and stretch shadows and highlights is a big plus.

Canon's sensors aren't actually that far behind in DR if you don't count the shadow pattern noise, but because the pattern noise means that you have less room to lift shadows before it starts getting ugly it reduces the effective DR of the camera. Fix that one issue and there are a lot fewer complaints. The 5DIII is about half way there, as it's improved over previous cameras but still has some lingering issues in the shadows.



Nov 10, 2012 at 04:03 AM
Johnny B Goode
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Canon, please make better sensors...


retrofocus wrote:
Why not? Look at the price of the D800. At least for me, this camera has everything I would need.


Everything you need until sigma perfects a full frame foveon sensor then everyone's gonna be bagging on canon for investing in greater DR when all they want is a sensor with no AA filter!



Nov 10, 2012 at 07:22 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Canon, please make better sensors...


As the owner of three Canon cameras and a ton of Canon glass I am obviously committed to the system for the long run. I have have always enjoyed the IQ from Canon sensors and I must admit I was always skeptical when people started raising issues about the shadow performance and dismissed the cap tests as silly. Who would push shadows 4 stops in real life right? Then I started to think about how I worked with my Canon camera and realized that I was either avoiding these type of scenarios or just accepting the fact you didn't try to even push the shadows much more than 1 maybe rarely 2 stops. You just accepted that was the way things were. You either try minimize contrast, shoot in different light, use flash, take two or more exposures etc if you didn't like the limited DR. And of course it was the same for all cameras naturally? Then I started seeing examples of what Nikon cameras were capable of when pushing shadows 5 stops or more. It was an eye opener and frankly gobsmacked me. If I could do the same thing with my Canon cameras it would allow me to take pictures I would never consider with a single frame or allow for super clean shadows for many scenes where I had to deal with backlighting or a bright background with a dark subject, a frequent occurrence when shooting bif's for example.

So bottom line is yes we can get by and in most cases we don't run into any issues but we also implicitly avoid situations that would cause us to need to push shadows so much. Having such ability would indeed be awesome and open up some possibilities we have only dreamt of.



Nov 10, 2012 at 10:23 AM
 

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PetKal
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Pixel Perfect wrote:
If I could do the same thing with my Canon cameras it would allow me to take pictures I would never consider with a single frame or allow for super clean shadows for many scenes where I had to deal with backlighting or a bright background with a dark subject, a frequent occurrence when shooting bif's for example.

So bottom line is yes we can get by and in most cases we don't run into any issues but we also implicitly avoid situations that would cause us to need to push shadows so much. Having such ability would indeed
...Show more

+1
I ain't complaining either, but I do acknowledge that one has to be very careful when dealing with shadows, when using Canon cameras. However, I am not sure how much better a Nikon camera such as D4 or D800 would be for what I do.



Nov 10, 2012 at 11:10 AM
anthonygh
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Let say say the 1Dx sensor is Canon's best ever (as someone states above)....who buys that camera? I may be naive here, but I assume it is professional photographers.....most of whom will need to produce images that will eventually be seen as some form of printed image.

So the quality of the final image is highly dependent on the quality of the print process. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but my only hands on comparison to date are files from a 5D and 40D with the same lenses with the same model taken during a studio session...printed to A3 on an Epson R2880.

If there is an IQ difference I can't see it...but presumably people on here will argue the 5D FF sensor is 'better' than the 40D crop sensor? I would be interested in the circumstances (outside possible pixel peeping) where these Canon sensors are inadequate for a professional.



Nov 10, 2012 at 11:25 AM
Rusty1
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Fred Miranda wrote:
I'm sure Canon does not enjoy hearing about the "Exmor" advantages.
The question is: Can they deliver similar or better sensor technology at an affordable price?


For me that says it all.



Nov 10, 2012 at 11:55 AM
David Baldwin
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Whenever either Nikon or Canon bring out a camera with a particular advantage/technical benefit we all expect the other brand to equal or exceed it within one product generation.

Whether we individually "need" that feature or not is beside the point. Clearly some photographers do (otherwise that feature wouldn't be developed in the first place) and they should be able to get what they need from either brand.

Or else the market perception of the lesser performing brand will suffer. I suspect that for the 5D3 focusing was the main improvement, I would expect the 5D4 to concentrate on the lowest noise/highest DR aspects of sensor design. I'm already saving up for this body!



Nov 10, 2012 at 12:50 PM
retrofocus
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Johnny B Goode wrote:
Everything you need until sigma perfects a full frame foveon sensor then everyone's gonna be bagging on canon for investing in greater DR when all they want is a sensor with no AA filter!



This is a good point, Johnny! I always liked Sigma's idea of sensors, especially that you can easily remove and reattach the ICF/AA filter there (which is perfect for infrared use for example). I can definitely support your argument in regard to the AA filter - I see the huge improvement in sharpness in my IR-converted 5D II camera which has no AA filter. In normal color spectrum this difference must be even bigger when no AA is used. Leica also uses their M camera series without AA filter as far as I remember.



Nov 10, 2012 at 01:53 PM
Bones74
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Mescalamba wrote:
It sorta means you want better usable dynamic range, just other words used.


That's true but I mean having it straight off the sensor isn't a priority (but it would be nice). I'm happy to increase the DR in post without too much sacrifice in IQ.



Nov 10, 2012 at 01:56 PM
Bones74
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Canon, please make better sensors...


snapsy wrote:
If that's the case I can recommend Nik Dfine 2.0 - it's debanding feature works very well with no visible side effects.


Cheers Snapsy, I'll look into that



Nov 10, 2012 at 01:58 PM
chez
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Canon, please make better sensors...


David Baldwin wrote:
Whenever either Nikon or Canon bring out a camera with a particular advantage/technical benefit we all expect the other brand to equal or exceed it within one product generation.

Whether we individually "need" that feature or not is beside the point. Clearly some photographers do (otherwise that feature wouldn't be developed in the first place) and they should be able to get what they need from either brand.

Or else the market perception of the lesser performing brand will suffer. I suspect that for the 5D3 focusing was the main improvement, I would expect the 5D4 to concentrate on the lowest
...Show more

Yeh, the 5d3 AF is great, but it is nothing new. That AF was available for years in the 1series cameras. All Canon did was put the existing AF into the 5d2...no new tech.



Nov 10, 2012 at 02:57 PM
chez
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Bones74 wrote:
That's true but I mean having it straight off the sensor isn't a priority (but it would be nice). I'm happy to increase the DR in post without too much sacrifice in IQ.


There is a huge effect on IQ when you start lifting the shadows in post. That is where the Nikon sensors shine and Canon sensors stink.



Nov 10, 2012 at 02:59 PM
chez
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Canon, please make better sensors...


Bones74 wrote:
Cheers Snapsy, I'll look into that


I use Define 2 and it does squat with banding.



Nov 10, 2012 at 03:00 PM
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