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Archive 2012 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction
  
 
Kmccarthy
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p.1 #1 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


I'm trying to figure out exactly how the High ISO Noise Reduction in-camera setting affects the default chrominance and luminance settings in Raw files in Digital Photo Professional. The level of NR seems to increase in proportion to ISO, which seems reasonable. The relative amount of NR is also affected by the camera setting (off, low, standard, high), which also makes sense.

Here is what I dont understand.

When I set the in-camera setting to "off", the chrominance and luminance NR settings in DPP are usually not 0. In fact, I've seen them as high as 7-10 (at high ISOs), even with the in-camera setting set to off.

This seems to affect JPEGs as well, which suggests there is always some level of NR applied to all JPEG files, even when the in-camera High ISO NR is set to off.

Do all Canon cameras behave like this? I never noticed it on the 5D Mark II. Why doesn't off mean off?

thanks




Oct 23, 2012 at 01:52 AM
abqnmusa
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p.1 #2 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


which camera body?

make sure you turn off all noise reduction in the camera settings
Long Exposure Noise Reduction disabled
High ISO Speed Noise Reduction disabled

Also change perferences in DPP

go to preferences
default noise reduction settings
set as defaults
RAW luminence noise reduction 0
RAW chrominance noise reduction 0

that is great if you use "Transfer to Photoshop"

Then you can process a RAW image, set sharpening to 0, and select "transfer to Photoshop"
use Photoshop plugin to remove noise, and then sharpen in Photoshop



Oct 23, 2012 at 07:48 PM
Kmccarthy
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p.1 #3 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


Thanks for the reply. I'm using a 5D III and I have all NR disabled in the camera. I know I can overide the raw NR settings in DPP but I'm just puzzled by the fact that disabling it in-camera doesn't seem to really disable it. This is particularly concerning for JPEGs, since they can't be changed after the fact. I'm also curious about out how the camera determines the proper levels of NR. I have seen different levels at the same ISO, so there seems to be a bit more to it.


Oct 23, 2012 at 11:36 PM
PhilDrinkwater
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p.1 #4 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


The 5d3 and 1dx generally are thought to have pretty high NR for JPEGs. Maybe Canon took the view that they didn't want to allow people to switch it off in camera?


Oct 24, 2012 at 08:29 AM
TeamSpeed
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p.1 #5 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


Kmccarthy wrote:
I'm trying to figure out exactly how the High ISO Noise Reduction in-camera setting affects the default chrominance and luminance settings in Raw files in Digital Photo Professional. The level of NR seems to increase in proportion to ISO, which seems reasonable. The relative amount of NR is also affected by the camera setting (off, low, standard, high), which also makes sense.

Here is what I dont understand.

When I set the in-camera setting to "off", the chrominance and luminance NR settings in DPP are usually not 0. In fact, I've seen them as high as 7-10 (at high ISOs), even with
...Show more

The option to disable this setting (DISABLED) doesn't mean NR is zero. It means that there is no more enhanced values to the 2 sliders than what Canon determined as appropriate values during their testing. They determined the minimum value needed for the sensor and digic output while still retaining detail.

Even bodies that didn't have this CF setting available have NR values set in-camera, like the 5D classic.

If you use DPP to generate your JPGs and you don't want NR on your files, go to your settings for DPP, and there is a checkbox to turn off using the camera NR values. You will probably go back and set it back though.



Oct 24, 2012 at 11:42 AM
Kmccarthy
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p.1 #6 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction






The option to disable this setting (DISABLED) doesn't mean NR is zero. It means that there is no more enhanced values to the 2 sliders than what Canon determined as appropriate values during their testing. They determined the minimum value needed for the sensor and digic output while still retaining detail.

Even bodies that didn't have this CF setting available have NR values set in-camera, like the 5D classic.

If you use DPP to generate your JPGs and you don't want NR on your files, go to your settings for DPP, and there is a checkbox to turn off using the camera NR values. You will probably go back and set it back though.

Thanks for the reply. I think you are probably right. I just never noticed it before because my 7D and even 5DII were relatively noisy when the in-camera NR was set to "off". So I always assumed it really was off.

The 5DIII on the other hand seems to have a higher level of NR enabled all the time, even when it is set to "off". I don't mind the Chroma NR so much, but the Lumina seems a bit too heavy, making skin too smooth and featureless. I know I can adjust everything in RAW, but I like shooting JPEG most of the time (I'm not a pro and don't have much time for post processing). I think the 5DII had more pleasing and natural looking JPEGs.


Oct 24, 2012 at 03:40 PM
 

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TeamSpeed
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p.1 #7 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


If I had access to a 5D3, I would add to this grid that I filled out when I had a 5D2 and 7D. It was very interesting to see the various settings between the 7D and 5D2, especially when people would argue as to which provided the best results.




Oct 24, 2012 at 04:45 PM
Kmccarthy
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p.1 #8 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


TeamSpeed wrote:
If I had access to a 5D3, I would add to this grid that I filled out when I had a 5D2 and 7D. It was very interesting to see the various settings between the 7D and 5D2, especially when people would argue as to which provided the best results.

http://teamspeed.smugmug.com/Electronics/Reference-Material/i-q5H82W8/0/O/1009434505vea43-O.jpg


This is really great information! I will try to fill in the rest of the grid for the 5DIII this weekend. Did you find that the chrom and lum settings were always the same for a given ISO? I seem to remember seeing differnt settings on the 5DIII at the same ISO, but I could be wrong.



Oct 24, 2012 at 11:38 PM
scalesusa
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p.1 #9 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


All DSLR's have two stages of NR. There is on-chip NR which is applied by electroics on the sensor itself, and then additional NR that is applied by software algorithms in Digic for jpegs, or in DPP for Raw.

You cannot change those applied by the sensor, but can shut off the software NR. Its not applied to Raw in any event until processed in DPP.

You do not want that appliied to the sensor shutoff in any event, since the image would be horrible.



Oct 25, 2012 at 12:21 AM
Kmccarthy
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p.1 #10 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


As I understand it, the NR algorithms and JPEG converters in-camera and in DPP are exactly the same. The only differernce is that we have more control in DPP. As a result, if you shoot Raw+jpeg and then convert the raw file to a JPEG using DPP with default settings, the in-camera JPEG and DPP JPEG should be basically identical.

While there may be some underlying NR that happens at the sensor level, I think the settings we are discussing are all software based.



Oct 25, 2012 at 12:33 AM
Matt Howell
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p.1 #11 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


I wish people would actually test things instead of speculating and then posting here. This is how incorrect information gets spread around the internet. It does nothing but add to the noise that has to be filtered out to find anything of value.

The noise reduction, sharpening, and JPEG encoding of DPP is not the same as the cameras. This is the case with all Canon DSLRs, top to bottom. You can test it for yourself easily, just shoot raw+jpg and compare to the DPP conversion.


Years ago Canon also made a raw converter called raw image task that was built into the Zoombrowser EX application. Raw Image Task was capable of almost fully replicating the camera jpeg conversion, but the last EOS camera it supported was the Rebel XS released over 4 years ago.


Kmccarthy wrote:
As I understand it, the NR algorithms and JPEG converters in-camera and in DPP are exactly the same. The only differernce is that we have more control in DPP. As a result, if you shoot Raw+jpeg and then convert the raw file to a JPEG using DPP with default settings, the in-camera JPEG and DPP JPEG should be basically identical.

While there may be some underlying NR that happens at the sensor level, I think the settings we are discussing are all software based.



Oct 25, 2012 at 05:22 PM
Kmccarthy
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p.1 #12 · 5D Mark III High ISO Noise Reduction


Matt Howell wrote:
I wish people would actually test things instead of speculating and then posting here. This is how incorrect information gets spread around the internet. It does nothing but add to the noise that has to be filtered out to find anything of value.

The noise reduction, sharpening, and JPEG encoding of DPP is not the same as the cameras. This is the case with all Canon DSLRs, top to bottom. You can test it for yourself easily, just shoot raw+jpg and compare to the DPP conversion.

Years ago Canon also made a raw converter called raw image task that was built
...Show more

I have tested it.To me, both look basically identical. The only difference I noticed was the file size of the DPP JEPGs were larger if the quality was set to 10. However, with the quality set to 7 the file sizes were almost identical. I assumed the slight difference was from other settings that may not have been carried over in the raw file.

Unless you work for Canon and have authoritative inside information, it seems like you are doing exactly what you're accusing me of; stating your opinion as fact. Can you provide the source of your information?





Oct 26, 2012 at 01:41 AM





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