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Archive 2012 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS
  
 
Exdsc
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p.2 #1 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


aznature wrote:
Based on the file size the left image is non-compressed....... and looks better
am i missing anything?


No. That was the point of this thread. The D200 RAW compressions pretty much screws up the highlights and color rendition, which is especially apparent in shots of blue sky with white clouds. Basically 6mb of RAW data is thrown away.


And it is actually shocking to know that most entry level DSLRs throw away RAW data when shot in RAW mode - personally I didn't believe it at first and thought all RAW compression is lossless... Imagine if one could actually get uncompressed RAW files from entry level DSLRs... For example from D3200.



Oct 31, 2012 at 08:24 PM
AndreasE
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p.2 #2 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


Exdsc wrote:
And it is actually shocking to know that most entry level DSLRs throw away RAW data when shot in RAW mode - personally I didn't believe it at first and thought all RAW compression is lossless... Imagine if one could actually get uncompressed RAW files from entry level DSLRs... For example from D3200.


In an "ideal" world of course all pro stuff would be available in entry level cams. As you mentioned the D3200.

Image quality is not only dependent on file format and its compression, but on the whole pipeline. The sensor of the D3200 is more capable than the sensor of the D200. Even with compressed RAWs the content in the file is different from an information content perspective vs. the D200 RAW file. Even if it would be lossless.
http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/Charts/PDR.htm#D200,D3200,D700,D600

rgds,
Andy





Oct 31, 2012 at 08:31 PM
Exdsc
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p.2 #3 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


AndreasE wrote:
In an "ideal" world of course all pro stuff would be available in entry level cams. As you mentioned the D3200.

Image quality is not only dependent on file format and its compression, but on the whole pipeline. The sensor of the D3200 is more capable than the sensor of the D200. Even with compressed RAWs the content in the file is different from an information content perspective vs. the D200 RAW file. Even if it would be lossless.
http://home.comcast.net/~nikond70/Charts/PDR.htm#D200,D3200,D700,D600

rgds,
Andy



In an Ideal world the camera makers won't shaft their customers by deliberately withholding performance in order to maintain market segmentation. Once it used to be jpg-only P&S cameras until they were forced to offer RAW and then the subtle scheme of compressing RAW to maintain the illusion of why 10mp is not as good in a low-end model compared to a high-end model, when in truth the low-end model simply throws away data instead of offering it to the user.

D3200 might offer on the paper better performance than D200, but it does not have the colors of D200 and also its highlights... But then an uncompressed RAW file from D3200 and what it will offer is anyone's guess... Which makes me wonder if the reason everyone's raving about Sigma DP2M could be its 50mb of uncompressed RAW file that seems to have incredible detail.



Oct 31, 2012 at 08:51 PM
AndreasE
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p.2 #4 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


Exdsc wrote:
D3200 might offer on the paper better performance than D200, but it does not have the colors of D200 and also its highlights...


Any evidence for your statement you can point me to?

regards,
Andy



Oct 31, 2012 at 08:54 PM
BenV
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p.2 #5 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


I'm still confused on why we're discussing the performance of a 8 year old camera and shocked it isn't on par with newer gear.


Oct 31, 2012 at 09:07 PM
Exdsc
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p.2 #6 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


AndreasE wrote:
Any evidence for your statement you can point me to?

regards,
Andy


Photography as I said in another post is not overclocking, PC gaming and other computer related power-user activity to measure with benchmarks and charts. Photography is far more subtle and if you were aware of those subtle nuances of photography, you wouldn't have asked this question in the first place.

Color rendition and highlight quality is not something that one can learn for photozone.de or dpreview.




Oct 31, 2012 at 09:25 PM
Exdsc
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p.2 #7 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


BenV wrote:
I'm still confused


Confusion is good, its like a comfortable bubble that we all need to stay in. lol



Oct 31, 2012 at 09:27 PM
AndreasE
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p.2 #8 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


Exdsc wrote:
Photography as I said in another post is not overclocking, PC gaming and other computer related power-user activity to measure with benchmarks and charts.

Photography is far more subtle and if you were aware of those subtle nuances of photography, you wouldn't have asked this question in the first place.


Then your ranting about the limitations of lossless compression makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the esoteric non-answer.

rgds,
Andy



Oct 31, 2012 at 09:36 PM
Exdsc
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p.2 #9 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


AndreasE wrote:
Then your ranting about the limitations of lossless compression makes a lot of sense.
Thanks for the esoteric non-answer.

rgds,
Andy


I have a headphone that costs more than D800. Why I bought that instead of being happy with $5 earbuds is eroticism (and esoteric), photography is not on that level, its just a little nuanced.



The conclusion from this thread: buy a used high-end model that gives you uncompressed RAW option instead of the brand you giga pixel entry model camera that is throwing away RAW data in order to fit its price range.



Oct 31, 2012 at 10:02 PM
M635_Guy
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p.2 #10 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


Exdsc wrote:
I have a headphone that costs more than D800. Why I bought that instead of being happy with $5 earbuds is eroticism (and esoteric), photography is not on that level, its just a little nuanced.

The conclusion from this thread: buy a used high-end model that gives you uncompressed RAW option instead of the brand you giga pixel entry model camera that is throwing away RAW data in order to fit its price range.


I've been struggling for a few minutes to think of a way to say this more constructively, but I failed: I don't think you know what you're talking about, and I don't think you understand the knowledge level of the person trying to help you.

You don't have the problem you think you have, and your conclusions are wrong pretty much across the board. You'd benefit from some listening skills.



Nov 01, 2012 at 11:51 PM
 

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BobSam
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p.2 #11 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


Exdsc --- "You'd benefit from some listening skills."

+1



Nov 02, 2012 at 01:16 AM
Exdsc
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p.2 #12 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


M635_Guy wrote:
I've been struggling for a few minutes to think of a way to say this more constructively, but I failed: I don't think you know what you're talking about, and I don't think you understand the knowledge level of the person trying to help you.

You don't have the problem you think you have, and your conclusions are wrong pretty much across the board. You'd benefit from some listening skills.


Here is something I posted in a different section which is relevant to this topic, hopefully it will broaden your horizons and stop you from making a fool of yourself in the future.



'A vast majority of people won't be able to tell the difference between CD quality music and mp3, because they play their music in crappy systems and their ears lack the sensitivity and training to know the difference. or their music is not the sort that will benefit from high fidelity.


Think of it in those terms. One has to have a criterion for "quality" before talking about quality.'



Nov 02, 2012 at 03:21 PM
M635_Guy
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p.2 #13 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


Exdsc wrote:
Here is something I posted in a different section which is relevant to this topic, hopefully it will broaden your horizons and stop you from making a fool of yourself in the future.

'A vast majority of people won't be able to tell the difference between CD quality music and mp3, because they play their music in crappy systems and their ears lack the sensitivity and training to know the difference. or their music is not the sort that will benefit from high fidelity.

Think of it in those terms. One has to have a criterion for "quality" before talking about
...Show more

- I'm quite comfortable with who is appearing foolish in this thread. You're proving my point precisely.

Maybe you should take off your $3000 headset and do some real, high-fidelity listening... (and I don't mean to me, in case you haven't figured that out)



Nov 03, 2012 at 04:55 AM
nikt
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p.2 #14 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


This is very over reactionary. There are reasons the camera has options. You could have easily have said "Jpg Basic is a rubbish, because Jpg fine is much better"

Points of learning from this thread.

1. Understand, test and evaluate the camera you buy before you buy it.
2. Read the manual ween you do.
3. Understand what the various settings do on your camera.
4. Use the most appropriate settings for the various situations.
5. Find out what your camera is good at and what it is not.




Nov 03, 2012 at 08:04 AM
M635_Guy
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p.2 #15 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


nikt wrote:
This is very over reactionary. There are reasons the camera has options. You could have easily have said "Jpg Basic is a rubbish, because Jpg fine is much better"

Points of learning from this thread.

1. Understand, test and evaluate the camera you buy before you buy it.
2. Read the manual ween you do.
3. Understand what the various settings do on your camera.
4. Use the most appropriate settings for the various situations.
5. Find out what your camera is good at and what it is not.



At a minimum, I think he fundamentally doesn't understand the RAW format, the nature of the compression going on with RAW (and JPEG) and how JPEG is treated by the camera. Beyond that, his example makes it extremely unclear if he understands exposure and the settings on the camera itself. That sounds harsh, but I honestly don't think any of it is unfair.

OP - Why not set the camera for JPEG + RAW and get a single shutter release with both formats? That would give you and anyone trying to help you much more relevant information. Post the JPEG Quality and other settings you've set and what (if anything) you're doing in post for the RAW image.



Nov 03, 2012 at 04:29 PM
waysaz
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p.2 #16 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


BenV wrote:
I'm still confused on why we're discussing the performance of a 8 year old camera and shocked it isn't on par with newer gear.


+1

I'm still confused on why we're using skies shot at different exposures as evidence of anything but the fact that different exposures produce different results, regardless of image compression.

OP, have you tried repeating your experiment with identical manual exposures? Bracket up and down in 1/3-stop increments and note how small a bump it takes to blow out sky and clouds. Newer cameras may be a little better (improved dynamic range), but it's the same idea. Digital is rough on the highlights.



Nov 03, 2012 at 08:05 PM
theSuede
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p.2 #17 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


+2

Identical scene and photometric exposure, otherwise a comparison is void, meaningless and totally without statistic merit or validity.
That's why ABX testing exists, mainly within audio, but also when you compare human perception evaluation of image quality in a scientifically valid way. We used to do that when comparing different screen pattern types for print.

It's quite hilarious how few "audiophiles" actually hear the difference between a good quality mp3 , a high-rate AAC or a raw uncompressed signal, even on a 3000$ set of heads on a good headphone amplifier. They're usually very sure of themselves in the beginning, but after a few ABX rounds (when they still have the same hit/miss rate as an average random generator) confidence always tumbles.

The power of induced self suggestion on perception should never be underestimated. And it shouldn't be scoffed at either - since it has the same base workings as a placebo medicine. As long as the patient / subject is convinced, you get physiological effects. As long as the customer is convinced that the [very expensive] equipment he bought is world class audiophile material, it will sound beautiful - regardless of how crappy it really is.

You can have an OPINION or THINK that one thing is true - but until you have a relevant and valid base of comparison, that's all it is. Opinions and guesses.
...............

So if you want to have a case saying that "this is different from this", then:
1) take two shots with all circumstances as identical as you can - that means, if you're not in a studio with constant light setup: try to take the pictures as close in time as possible.
2) Make SURE that both shots are taken at the exact same photometric exposure. That means Manual Mode, same ISO, same aperture, same shutterspeed.

Going into a menu and changing that setting shouldn't take more than five seconds tops. I've owned and used about ten different Nikon bodies, and if it takes you longer than that - RTFM.



Nov 04, 2012 at 12:13 AM
M635_Guy
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p.2 #18 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


He doesn't need to take 2 different shots. He can shoot in JPEG+RAW mode and he'll have identical values to compare. Before he does that he should reset te camera and make sure he's setting the JPEG and RAW settings for comparison.


Nov 04, 2012 at 12:34 AM
theSuede
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p.2 #19 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


Wasn't the difference questioned the one between lossy compressed raw and uncompressed raw? For that you need two shots.


Nov 04, 2012 at 12:39 AM
M635_Guy
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p.2 #20 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS


theSuede wrote:
Wasn't the difference questioned the one between lossy compressed raw and uncompressed raw? For that you need two shots.


Apologies - you're right. I'd still recommend resetting the camera to make sure there isn't some strange setting going on that he's not aware of or has forgotten. The two shots should be taken as close together as possible in as controlled a situation as possible to be worth comparing.



Nov 04, 2012 at 04:41 AM
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