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Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?
  
 
sculptormic
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p.56 #1 · p.56 #1 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


contas wrote:
@jede:I tried to analyse your X3F file, and see your problem, that's a very common issue of a new Foveon user, b'cause not like previous PP sofwares, SPP is tricky and the camera settings are overset.Your dog will be nice when
-reduce contrast -.7, sharpness -.8,exposure -.3 .
-while X3F fill light +.8 and all 3 noise reduction at max.
Don't panic to a new unacquaintance, take time to get to accustom with your camera settings and SPP and enjoy your new toy.


You have a lot of experience with this sensor and SPP, I believe.
Would be nice to see the corrected file!
Jede?



Jan 12, 2013 at 12:45 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.56 #2 · p.56 #2 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


Contas: thank you.
Interested in seeing how far you can go with battling the issues Jede. I suspect your sensor is a bit underperforming but it seems like the problem is exacerbated with darker images.

General question: does the Foveon sensor not do as well as other sensors when you are trying to bring out some detail in shadow areas?

I am new to SPP and I welcome all input so I know the potential shortcomings of the sensor. It does seem picky with exposure. But that's fine with me.



Jan 12, 2013 at 01:00 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.56 #3 · p.56 #3 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


Collin Orthner: it is also my experience working with printing (well, not anymore, but I did it for quite some time) that 50% on screen viewing gives a fair estimate of what the actual print will look like and on top of that you can factor in print dithering depending on paper choice and print size. "Grainy" looking prints with good acuity usually print very well on my preferred papers.

I would think the DP files would hold up well in that regard.



Jan 12, 2013 at 01:07 PM
carstenw
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p.56 #4 · p.56 #4 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


sculptormic wrote:
.

Carsten may be you should check it out for yourself before you intervene and judge over all the posts you read. What do you care? Forum conscience? I have my own.


Forum conscience? I am just posting my opinion. Here is the phrasing which I objected to. It uses the tactics of ridicule to discredit an opinion different than your own. When someone gets unreasonably and unfairly hostile like this, I feel compelled to speak out:

"your last oh so miniscule wrong pixel findings are pointing to you as being a little obsessed with proving the sensor is no good."

He sees stripes, and voiced his concern. You turned it into a personal attack.



Jan 12, 2013 at 01:44 PM
sculptormic
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p.56 #5 · p.56 #5 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


I think it is unreasonable when Jede sees a few undifined pixels in somebody elses picture @ 200% and make a big thing about it. That is my opinion.

In a post he states Well well, seems that there are people who are a little touchy here about criticizing Sigma or the Foveon sensor. I don't even know if you're looking at the same issue on Juan's photo (I doubt it based on your comments), but if you're happy with your camera, that's ok. It's not serious, but it's there, and not on my unit only. Not a little line, but several lines across the image with constant pattern, on bright color surfaces.

It looks like he sees new defects all the time.
I did not see any proof of all the several lines acros the image with constant pattern, on bright surfaces. You should see my sentence in that context.

Tactics to ridicule? Check the file, I would say!
Could be that he sees things I did not see, but I doubt it.

I never put any words in his mouth which weren't there.

Isn't me being a little touchy here, personal? I wouldn't use the word attack. To big in this context. You make things bigger as they are, so lets stay on the topic.

On top of this I think Jede is perfectly capable to speak out for himself.
But if you feel compelled you should do so!



Jan 12, 2013 at 02:51 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.56 #6 · p.56 #6 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


DPR alert...
DPR alert...
DPR alert...

(in a robotic voice).

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Jan 12, 2013 at 04:22 PM
carstenw
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p.56 #7 · p.56 #7 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


Well, I see the stripes in the dog photo he posted. I wouldn't be happy with such results myself. I am not quite sure how you can claim not to see them?


Jan 12, 2013 at 04:29 PM
Jede
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p.56 #8 · p.56 #8 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


On top of this I think Jede is perfectly capable to speak out for himself.

I actually thought we had this conversation over with, but I'll respond as you seem to expect it. I'm not very keen to respond on your posts, because as carstenw said, you have a confrontational style to express your opinions, which I feel leaves little room for objective rational discussion. I'm not interested in debating, so hopefully we can leave this discussion here. Additionally, I've been in a hurry for several days now with other things, so explaining myself here hasn't been the top priority. Neither do I really feel obliged to.

First of all, thanks for the replies concerning the issue. mortyb, contas and glacierpete, I will try some tricks mentioned by you in my future post processing. I have Nik's Dfine bought for noise removal, and one can get the effect minimized in Photoshop by using masking and brushes on the areas affected. It's a a careful job, but I've saved some nice images with it. I'll see how the output is when using SPP in the way contas described. I'm not yet feeling the SPP is giving me a "flow experience" that I have gotten with Aperture and Photoshop. Workflow feels a bit awkward, and I need more experience and practice in order to make it feel fluent.

It seems that the appearance intensity is dependent on monitor, calibration and knowing what to look for. We all have unique vision and visual thinking patterns, so for some it might be easier to see. My 15" Retina MBP has a pixel density of 220ppi, which is rather high compared to for example 27" Cinema Display with only 109ppi. It really seems to bring flaws out in a way no other display has before. I'm not eyeing images at 200% (or 300% zoom as you wanted to exaggerate), but the effects are visible when simply viewing landscape images in full screen in Aperture or Photoshop. SPP doesn't support Retina display mode yet (we just got Photoshop support in December, thank god), so it's hard to evaluate the results directly in SPP. I like to watch my images in full screen mode (again, WITHOUT zooming), because I seldom have the interest to print them.

Like I said before, my intention was to present an issue which I have learned to observe in many of my images taken with this particular camera. Reading at your posts, I sense that we are not even talking about the same issue here. Maybe I have described it badly, sorry for that, so I'll try once more. For the last time I hope. The problem is, that in some images there seems to be lines going across the image on regular intervals, which cannot be parts of the scene or flaws appearing in the specific environment. It's a technical pattern, that is most visible in bright even surfaces on dark scenes with long exposures, and in some sense also in outdoor photos with big sky areas and large even bright surfaces. On landscape pictures the lines are vertical, and on portrait pictures they appear to be horizontal. The dog image was just one example, and using juan's image as example might have required a better explanation. Here I've cropped the top right corner of the windmill image, and cranked the contrast to maximum. I see those very faint horizontal patterns here on my monitor, please have a look. They were visible even on unedited Flickr image, which is why I chose to use it as an example. If you can't see anything, then I'm putting this under the factors mentioned above, and you really don't have to be obliged to comment further. Click for 100% crop. Sorry juan for exploiting your image in this way

Bigger here

I know when to expect the issue, and it isn't visible on all of my photos. And the dog image is the extreme example, so we all should treat it as just that. Leaving noise control sliders on the middle in SPP seems to eliminate the issue on majority of images. It's not critical, it doesn't make my images worse, doesn't affect the fundamentals of photography, and most certainly isn't a problem for majority of the users. Still, it's there, and each and everyone can decide if it's worth noting. I'm new to Foveon sensor, but this is something I haven't experienced with my previous cameras, and that's why I brought it up in the first place.

This is my last response on this issue, as I really have better things to do (taking images for example). So hopefully we can leave it here.



Jan 12, 2013 at 04:29 PM
Jede
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p.56 #9 · p.56 #9 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?



No berries today

The resolution in full res image is breathtaking. You can actually count the "branches" in single snowflakes


Composition number 341

I see this tree every day. Still it appears different every time, and I have almost like an obligation to take a snap each time.



Jan 12, 2013 at 05:00 PM
mortyb
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p.56 #10 · p.56 #10 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


I don't doubt the resolution at full size, but at websize, I think many of the photos from the DP2M look a bit oversharpened, too crunchy, for my taste. I guess the amount of detail makes it harder to resize without getting that crunchy look.


Jan 12, 2013 at 06:26 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



carstenw
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p.56 #11 · p.56 #11 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


I have similar difficulties downsizing my D800 images to forum size, so this does seem to be the case.


Jan 12, 2013 at 06:47 PM
Mescalamba
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p.56 #12 · p.56 #12 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


It easier to downsize files from Foveon, cause they are not interpolated to start with. Just takes good algorithm and not too much sharpening (I agree lots of DP2M shots look a bit oversharpened).

Regular Bayer is much harder, I runned into same problem when doing some pano which ended at 30 mpix, no way to get non-jaggy lines on things that are straight in real world..

And that banding issue, try simply over-expose a bit, when its possible. Kinda like old Canon sensors or Kodak, its base ISO camera anyway..



Jan 12, 2013 at 07:06 PM
Luis Cunha
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p.56 #13 · p.56 #13 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


Is it possible (I canīt remenber; I havenīt yet a DP2M) to shoot both RAW and a small jpeg for the web at the same time?


Jan 12, 2013 at 09:27 PM
sculptormic
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p.56 #14 · p.56 #14 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


Well I am sorry Jede if I am to confrontational, but I am glad you took the time to show what you ment in that particular image. In no way you are obliged to do so but since you went so far in pointing out your findings and I couldn't see them; made me a little irritated. Also when one does enjoy a camera so much for it's output in the kind of shots one wants to take, it kind of raised my haires in deed when you hear pages long about all the faults there seems to be in this sensor overflowing all the goodys it can bring.

It is really hard to see on my monitor what you ment but I can see it now. I was looking at a completly different iregularity in the sky.
Now that I know this I will try to find out if this happens in my images and see if it is a property of the sensor.

Without pixel peeping I want to say that your snowscapes look splendid! And I hope you can find enjoyment in using this crazy bricklike little box.

In general I am quiet a friendly guy and use these forums mererly for positive exchange of images and apparatus. Also I have better things to do like you.
You don't have to answer this (don't feel obliged but I am curious if the SPP advise Contas gave you did better your dog image?



Jan 12, 2013 at 10:20 PM
carstenw
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p.56 #15 · p.56 #15 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


I am thinking that the advice to over-expose 1/2 stop when possible might heal it. It looks as if this camera might be quite sensitive to under-exposure.


Jan 12, 2013 at 10:35 PM
sculptormic
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p.56 #16 · p.56 #16 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


I have never have so much problems with overexposure but that is mainly due to the fact that my exposure settings are already fixed to -2 or so in SPP. The bigger problem for me are the color and/or WB settings. I mean to get that right. It takes a lot of concentration and good looking to get that ackward WB point at the right place in the circle in SPP. I prefer to get it right there as good as possible, although in ACR/Lightroom you can correct more with the temperature and colour sliders.


Jan 12, 2013 at 10:51 PM
DougDolde
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p.56 #17 · p.56 #17 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


I've been shooting three frames with the DP2 Merrill. +2/0/-2 then outputting as 16 bit tiff with no corrections. I then fuse the three in Photomatix for a blended (not HDR) image. Here's one from Joshua Tree NP. No sharpening applied.

You can download the full rez version here.






Edited on Jan 13, 2013 at 04:59 PM · View previous versions



Jan 13, 2013 at 12:52 AM
Chrissearle
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p.56 #18 · p.56 #18 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


Ordered one! Been siting on the fence, watching this conversation develop, reading all the reviews and debating with myself, finally decided it would make the ideal companion to my X100 and G1X and a portable alternative to my 5D3 for landscapes. I'll certainly be adding my comments to this thread as soon as it arrives.....


Jan 13, 2013 at 11:27 AM
marcus riley
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p.56 #19 · p.56 #19 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


Luis Cunha wrote:
Is it possible (I canīt remenber; I havenīt yet a DP2M) to shoot both RAW and a small jpeg for the web at the same time?


Don't think anyone answered this yet so I'll take a stab:

I don't see any way to do this. It looks like there is no way to seperate the JPEG+RAW, as far as file size goes. You can change the file size, but it looks like the RAW and the JPEG sizes both change (I just tried to set the file size to small and the RAW and JPEG both ended up small). So, it doesn't look like there is a way to record seperate RAW and JPEG file sizes. Hope that helps.



Jan 13, 2013 at 04:02 PM
marcus riley
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p.56 #20 · p.56 #20 · Sigma DP2 Merrill: Have any of you tried it?


About the banding: I've also seen some of the same banding on my DP2m. A lot of it has to do with exposure, but there are also time that the exposure has been correct but I still get some line in the image, and not always in the darkest areas. But in general, it's been a small and infrequent issue (especially since I basically lock my DP2m at ISO 100-200), but I can imagine how frustrated I would be if it showed up in a special image.

I agree with others that the DP2m exposure is very finicky. I've also discovered that despite the camera being VERY good at recovering highlights (even compaired to my DLSRs), pushing the exposure down can also introduce noise into the image, which is usually only an issue when you are pushing an image brighter than the original exposure. So, I've found that the cleanest pictures from the camera are usually slightly overexposed originally, but not too overexposed.

For example, even though the camera might be able to recover all the highlights in an EV+1 or EV+1.3 image, I actually get more noise in the image than if I take an EV+0.7 image. The noise I see in my images that are taken at EV+1.3 and then pushed down in SPP is about the same as if I take an image that is underexposed, EV-0.7, and then pushed up. It's strange behavior that I'm not used to, but I find that if I stay around +0.3 to +0.7, I end up with the cleanest images.

When I'm back in the USA for a while, I'll probably send my camera to Sigma to have the banding looked out. I sometimes see it show up even at ISO 400 in bright light and a well-exposed image. And I almost always see it at ISO 800+. But I've also found that the JPEGs show MUCH more banding than the RAW images show, at both low and high ISO. So, I've also learned to never judge the noise/banding in an image until I've processed the RAW.

Mostly, I wanted to say to Jede that I'm really enjoying your images and I hope you will continue to work out your issues with the camera and post images. I can imagine that the pictures must have incredible detail at full-size with all of the texture present in the scene, and even the web-size images are breathtaking.



Jan 13, 2013 at 04:24 PM
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