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Archive 2012 · Composition experiment

  
 
Camperjim
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Composition experiment


Rusty, wow. That was a mouthful. Scary part is I think I understood your comments.


Sep 12, 2012 at 09:33 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Composition experiment


Camperjim wrote:
Rusty, wow. That was a mouthful. Scary part is I think I understood your comments.


The fact that anyone, anywhere, anytime, ever would understand my comments ... that IS scary.



Sep 12, 2012 at 09:38 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Composition experiment


Guess my biggest problem is that I can't express myself without being misunderstood.

I understand Rusty before and after he wrote it. It is not me who is applying ROT, it is me trying to figure out what everyone else means by it with respect to grand vista landscapes.

Let me make one more stab at this before I give up.

Ignore all the rest of this post. Use my past posts where I have been told that the image is static. Tell me how to get them unstatic, uncentered.







Sep 13, 2012 at 09:56 AM
sadja
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Composition experiment


Sorry, I have a hard time keeping up with your discussion.

Your marking of the ROT makes me think that you don't understand how it overlays a FOV. It should be marked as a grid (not a point). In any FOV it will have 4 intersections any one of which (or several of which) might be useful.

For your UW FOV preference, such as in this example, throw out the rules. Your subject should be centered. Scenes such as this example are intrinsically dull because in gathering in so much to see there appears to be no POV (apart from what appears to be an arbitrary camera placement). Without spectacular light, the scene will not be interesting regardless of what you do.

This particular scene does not improve much with cropping. There reallly nothing for us to focus on or to relate to within the scene. Good clouds and light will improve it by animating the flat reflection in the pond, but the mountains themselves will always remain blah in a wide view like this.



Sep 13, 2012 at 11:36 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Composition experiment


Ben, what orientation does the ridge run (N,S,E,W)? What direction are you shooting toward?

Without using a picture ... what one-word descriptor would would be the focal point of your message to your viewer that you want to convey ... i.e. reflection, ridge, treeline, serenity, grandeur, etc. (okay, you can pick two if that helps)?

Part of making composition (composite of all elements) decisions, including FOV, framing, focal point placement, etc. is rooted in what you are trying to convey. I know that if I can't answer that question for myself ... i.e. this is my point/message, then my ability to make such composition decisions is hampered ... unless of course, you just want to make lemonade.

I realize that we can't always control or predict what the sky will look like ... but we can know what direction our subject is being illuminated from, relative to its constant position and the movement of the sun throughout the time of day. But, in order to know how to harness and apply that ... I first must know the priorities of my point/message. I also realize that this shot is only a reference shot for developing a strategy, so I'm not reading into it as being what you wanted for lighting ... but since lighting is such a strategic part of our compositions ... it is pertinent to our approach scheme.

Part of what made your "Christmas in August" ... was the raking light across the tops of the wheat. The sky of course provided some other areas of interest as the light was illuminating the clouds as well. The mountain however had lesser interest. Form, texture, and values provide for interest. In the vein of maximize your strength, minimize your weakness ... what portions of the scene are capable of generating the most interest? Which portions are "limited"? These questions/answers largely depend on the range of possibilities for the lighting throughout the day ... i.e. back to the compass & clock.

Edited on Sep 13, 2012 at 12:05 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2012 at 11:43 AM
ben egbert
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Composition experiment


Thanks Sadja for responding to my core question. I did not do a grid overlay because its very hard to draw freehand with a mouse and while I once knew how to do one in photoshop at one time it was so complicated I forgot.

You are correct, this scene will never work until I get a sky as shown in the attached image. Then I think it will be pretty nice. No Marroon Bells or Canadian Rockies, but still nice and a place I have access too.

I Need to be prepared for that. My trips help me figure out light, times of season, and composition.

I am only asking for help with comp, you folks need to get past what it looks like in practice shots and try to visualize it with dramatic light.

I think my prior post got me some advice on what to do. I did it and now I am trying to get some feedback on what I did. I think my recent effort is an improvement to composition over my first effort.

Sadja, I suspect you just don't like Grand Vistas. That's just a valid personal choice, not a condemnation of the type.

By the way, this shot was also centered, and then cropped to decenter. My usual method when not using a TSE lens.








Edited on Sep 13, 2012 at 12:11 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2012 at 11:53 AM
sadja
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Composition experiment


I like grand vistas just fine, if there's an interesting subject.

Your Tetons vista and reflections work nicely. (the image did not show on my monitor till after I posted).



Edited on Sep 13, 2012 at 12:03 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2012 at 12:00 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Composition experiment


RustyBug wrote:
Ben, what orientation does the ridge run (N,S,E,W)? What direction are you shooting toward?

Without using a picture ... what one-word descriptor would would be the focal point of your message to your viewer that you want to convey ... i.e. reflection, ridge, treeline, serenity, grandeur, etc. (okay, you can pick two if that helps)?


How about Big Mountain Reflection?

The elements I really like here are the meadow-pond, the trees and the mountain. Of course I want the reflection too. As I explained above to Sadja, these are all practice shots until I get the dramatic light I need to transform this into something more interesting.

If you compare the shot I showed in my last post and the one I got this time. I think I got a better comp. I was happy enough the first time, but I am not unhappy with the new one, and I think it does meet the idea of being decentered enough to avoid being static. Just looking for some conformation that it does or some explanation about why it does not.

I can shot for myself, but with a little effort, I can also shoot for the forum. I just need to know what that means.

Forgot. its runs north south and I am pointing north east here. It is a sunset location.


By the way, I also showed a sunset shot with some sky drama from a year ago, that will give and idea of what it looks like at sunset. But that shot was low drama, still looking for high drama.



Sep 13, 2012 at 12:01 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Composition experiment


Hmmmm ...

If the ridge runs N-S, then your lighting @ sunset will be coming form the west and you won't have much in the way of sidelighting for you ridge in the horizontal shadows. If you shoot with the sun higher in the sky, you will be able to generate some vertical shadows, however to provide some modeling for the face of the ridge.

Reviewing "last years" shot ... the sunset color is obviously more dramatic, but the angle of illumination is still very "frontal" as W is perpendicular to N-S. High drama typically comes from greater contrast ... which front lighting isn't your best friend in creating differential or modeling.

Edited on Sep 13, 2012 at 12:24 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2012 at 12:17 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Composition experiment


Right, I understand that sunset/sunrise does not help bare granite when it is pretty direct. The mountain is not all that interesting by itself. This is a second order mountain. The sky and reflection will need to carry the day.

Note my Schawbacher landing shot just above. You can hardly tell its the Tetons because of cloud cover and diminishing the size with a wide angle. Here is the same scene mid day without clouds and at 35mm rather than 21.

This accentuates the mountain, but has no drama and the shadows are bad. Many scenes also need to be shot with shadow control in mind.









Sep 13, 2012 at 12:23 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Composition experiment


sadja wrote:
I like grand vistas just fine, if there's an interesting subject.

Your Tetons vista and reflections work nicely. (the image did not show on my monitor till after I posted).



When you make a reply, you can't include an image, You need post and then go back into edit mode to include the image. This happens to Rusty and I all the time, we read his reply while he is still working on it.



Sep 13, 2012 at 12:38 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Composition experiment


Side note on the Schawbacher shot. This is one of the Icons, there is always 20 people here on fall sunrise days. Yet it has very limited possibilities. You must more or less center it left to right to get a reflection. 35FF is about right, I have it at 50 and it cuts off the tree reflection at the bottom as is almost the case at 35mm. Yet framing to get the entire reflection tends to center the image vertically.

Even a TSE would have issues here. Shifting down would include a dirty pond edge and shifting up would cut off the the reflection.



Sep 13, 2012 at 12:43 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Composition experiment


That's if you use the big "send reply" button ... use the "post reply" circle or the smaller "reply" button and the image upload options appear at the same time with the text box.

Okay, so if the ridge is NOT going to carry the day, but the reflection and sky are, your strengths are oriented vertically in relation to each other. That along with your foreshortening technique makes me wonder if a vertical comp shouldn't be explored. Here's a rough crop to square (most portrait I could get) that truncates the length of the ridge (determined not to be the strong suit for drama) in favor of strengthening the reflection / foreground / sky.

Granted a bit of imagination is need to convert it to portrait orientation ... but I think the crux of the issue is trying to make the length of the ridge your strong/dramatic hand, when it is the weaker element due to the limitations of lighting orientation.

Add some illuminated clouds (which will reflect dimensionality) about two hours (or so) before sunset ...







Edited on Sep 13, 2012 at 01:35 PM · View previous versions



Sep 13, 2012 at 12:46 PM
RustyBug
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Composition experiment


ben egbert wrote:
Side note on the Schawbacher shot. This is one of the Icons, there is always 20 people here on fall sunrise days. Yet it has very limited possibilities. You must more or less center it left to right to get a reflection. 35FF is about right, I have it at 50 and it cuts off the tree reflection at the bottom as is almost the case at 35mm. Yet framing to get the entire reflection tends to center the image vertically.

Even a TSE would have issues here. Shifting down would include a dirty pond edge and shifting up would
...Show more

Shooting from a higher vantage point (and TS-E) ... pole, top of vehicle, ladder, etc. ... any prospects?



Sep 13, 2012 at 12:54 PM
ben egbert
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Composition experiment


RustyBug wrote:
Shooting from a higher vantage point (and TS-E) ... pole, top of vehicle, ladder, etc. ... any prospects?


Ok, this spot if a 1/4 mile hike not so great for a ladder. Usually you can't stand back either or you get people in the shot. But I get your point. The height can be fixed however with either a wider image and a crop or perhaps a lower camera height.

The story on the Schwabacher shot is that I had the 35mm lens mounted focused and composed when this sunrise started to develop. I quickly mounted the 17-40 to get the larger view it called for. No time to compose, get ND grads on etc, as it was, I was one the few there who got the lens change in time.

I once shot next to a Popular Photography columnist here.

On the square crop, I don't like square, but like I said, I will start taking shots for the forum and I could either crop or compose that way just for that purpose. The ridge is not great, but I still like it. I also hate to cut off the pond. I would like to find a spot that included the whole pond, or at least the entire left side. I am guessing higher water would help.



.



Sep 13, 2012 at 02:02 PM
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