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Archive 2012 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)
  
 
Kyndel
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p.66 #1 · p.66 #1 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Weasel_Loader wrote:
Totally missing the point of this camera. Like previously stated by many here, I doubt anyone is deciding between a full frame DSLR and the RX1. I don't miss my D700 with all the lenses and weight. Much prefer smaller cameras since I find more opportunities to shoot with them. They also don't attract the attention DSLRs do which totally destroys the candid people photos I love so much.


No I am not missing the point, therefore I joined this thread, but I think you are missing my point.



Oct 21, 2012 at 10:23 PM
Makten
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p.66 #2 · p.66 #2 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Kyndel wrote:
No I am not missing the point, therefore I joined this thread, but I think you are missing my point.


Then you must try to make your point again, and better. Why are you comparing it with a D600 without a lens? Why do you think a smaller camera should be cheaper, when making components smaller is much more expensive? Do you also want your laptop to be cheaper than your desktop, with the same performance?



Oct 22, 2012 at 05:47 AM
wfrank
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p.66 #3 · p.66 #3 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Makten wrote:
Then you must try to make your point again, ...


Or not. The guy doesnt like the camera that's all. A bit like me but for different reasons



Oct 22, 2012 at 07:11 AM
Kibsgaard
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p.66 #4 · p.66 #4 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


The point is easy to understand


Oct 22, 2012 at 02:06 PM
alundeb
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p.66 #5 · p.66 #5 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Kibsgaard wrote:
The point is easy to understand


Excuse me for being dense, but I read your post again and still don't understand it. You already got a large 35 mm F/2 lens and a large camera. For this you paid more than the RX1. But because you already have a lens and a camera, you want a rebate for buying it again in a smaller size?



Oct 22, 2012 at 02:13 PM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.66 #6 · p.66 #6 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


relevant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLj0IZFLKvg&feature=youtu.be



Oct 22, 2012 at 02:38 PM
Kibsgaard
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p.66 #7 · p.66 #7 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


alundeb wrote:
Excuse me for being dense, but I read your post again and still don't understand it. You already got a large 35 mm F/2 lens and a large camera. For this you paid more than the RX1. But because you already have a lens and a camera, you want a rebate for buying it again in a smaller size?


A rebate ? Where have I written about a rebate ?

I will probably buy this camera, but I can follow the point, that the price is too high, and ..... my argument for that is the same as written before, so no reason for writing the same.





Oct 22, 2012 at 02:53 PM
alundeb
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p.66 #8 · p.66 #8 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Kibsgaard wrote:
A rebate ? Where have I written about a rebate ?

I will probably buy this camera, but I can follow the point, that the price is too high, and ..... my argument for that is the same as written before, so no reason for writing the same.



I am just making things up. You think the price is set too high. In other words, you want the price to be lower. But the value of the goods (compared to another FF camera and similar lens) is spot on the price. So you want a rebate.

If you are covered with a FF camera and 35 mm f2 Zeiss already, you could just sell the Zeiss lens. Then you have a backup camera as well. And it is lighter with the lens than the large Zeiss lens alone.




Oct 22, 2012 at 03:48 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.66 #9 · p.66 #9 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


ken.vs.ryu wrote:
relevant?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLj0IZFLKvg&feature=youtu.be


Classic.



Oct 22, 2012 at 03:58 PM
Bijltje
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p.66 #10 · p.66 #10 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Does anyone know how "real" zeiss the lens is? Is it a rebranded sony lens, made by sony, designed by zeiss, like the many zeiss/ sony, or panasonic/ leica lenses out there. Or is it really a zeiss (or cosina) made lens and than shipped to sony to fit into the camera?

The calculated MFT chard kinda shows zeiss has nothing to do with it as they would show a measured chard.



Oct 22, 2012 at 05:05 PM
 

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douglasf13
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p.66 #11 · p.66 #11 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Bijltje wrote:
Does anyone know how "real" zeiss the lens is? Is it a rebranded sony lens, made by sony, designed by zeiss, like the many zeiss/ sony, or panasonic/ leica lenses out there. Or is it really a zeiss (or cosina) made lens and than shipped to sony to fit into the camera?

The calculated MFT chard kinda shows zeiss has nothing to do with it as they would show a measured chard.


Sony ZA lenses, and I assume this RX1 lens, are designed by Zeiss in cooperation with Sony, and they're built by Sony under Zeiss QC. All of the Zeiss ZA lenses show this type of mtf chart.

link



Oct 22, 2012 at 05:45 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.66 #12 · p.66 #12 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


I'm not particularly worried about whether Sony or Cosina build a Zeiss lens, as I believe that a client like Sony (or Panasonic with Leica as a designer) tells the lens designer what properties they want in the lens, and at what cost.

It may be wishful thinking but the retail cost of the camera to me suggests a spare no expense do it right the first time approach with this camera so I'm expecting the Zeiss 35/2 has more in common with Zeiss's own lenses than might be the case for other designed by Zeiss built by Sony lenses.

Various persons who have handled the camera attest to the apparent build quality. It would also appear that Sony paid attention to making the lens work well in manual focus mode. Huff said something to the effect that the manual focus of this focus by wire lens is the best he's handled.



Oct 22, 2012 at 05:48 PM
Bijltje
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p.66 #13 · p.66 #13 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


douglasf13 wrote:
Sony ZA lenses, and I assume this RX1 lens, are designed by Zeiss in cooperation with Sony, and they're built by Sony under Zeiss QC. All of the Zeiss ZA lenses show this type of mtf chart.

link



Okey, thanks.

michaelwatkins wrote:
I'm not particularly worried about whether Sony or Cosina build a Zeiss lens, as I believe that a client like Sony (or Panasonic with Leica as a designer) tells the lens designer what properties they want in the lens, and at what cost.

It may be wishful thinking but the retail cost of the camera to me suggests a spare no expense do it right the first time approach with this camera so I'm expecting the Zeiss 35/2 has more in common with Zeiss's own lenses than might be the case for other designed by Zeiss built by Sony lenses.

Various persons
...Show more

Well I find the difference between the cosina build and zeiss build lenses quite obvious (ZM 15/2.8 or 85/2) Not that the cosina build lenses are bad, but the 15mm and 85mm are really on par with the leica's while the other ZM's are not. In build I mean offcourse, optically they both have pro's and con's.

But never used an sony zeiss lens so don't know how they compare to the cosina or zeiss made lenses.


About the huff quote on the manual focus, I suspect he mean compared to other focus by wire lenses?



Oct 22, 2012 at 07:00 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.66 #14 · p.66 #14 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


I'm not sure I've ever used a Zeiss built lens; my SLR lenses I believe were built by Kyocera but I may be wrong on that. I've had pretty good luck with Cosina build ZM lenses from both build and optical performance perspectives.

Regarding the Huff quote, yes, he was comparing the feel of manual focus with other cameras of this "genre" which I take to mean compact cameras with focus by wire systems. Another who participated in the media event also commented on manual focus:

Instead, I actually opted for manually focusing the camera. In order to do this, you need so switch the front lever to the MF mode. Once that is done, it’s just a matter of moving the right ring around the lens. There are three rings around it: aperture, focusing, and focus limiting. Once you acquire the muscle memory, manually focusing with the Sony RX1 is an absolute wonder. It’s like putting a Voigtlander lens on a Micro Four Thirds camera body except that the focus peaking on the Sony RX1 is really, really good. Chris Gampat

If the lens is well built and if the lens optically does the job very well and if manual focus works well and if autofocus also meets expectations... if, If, IF ... guess we'll have to wait to find out for sure.

But... the unit as whole had better deliver as I imagine many are plunking down ~ 3500 - $4000 U.S. for the camera and certain accessories and perhaps extended warranties too. Expectations will be understandably high.

When I total it up I start to muse about pulling out film again, but that moment of reflection so far remains brief. Film would only deliver part of what I want out of this somewhat lateral move I'm planning, anyway.



Oct 22, 2012 at 07:11 PM
Kibsgaard
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p.66 #15 · p.66 #15 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


alundeb wrote:
I am just making things up. You think the price is set too high. In other words, you want the price to be lower. But the value of the goods (compared to another FF camera and similar lens) is spot on the price. So you want a rebate.

If you are covered with a FF camera and 35 mm f2 Zeiss already, you could just sell the Zeiss lens. Then you have a backup camera as well. And it is lighter with the lens than the large Zeiss lens alone.



A rebate is not the same as saying, that the price is too high. You will always get a rebate sooner or later.

Why should I sell my Zeiss lens ? - You have totally 100 % misunderstood my point - it is not "lack of money"

Is it normal for you to tell people what they should do - after your interpretation.



Oct 22, 2012 at 07:18 PM
alundeb
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p.66 #16 · p.66 #16 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Relax, I am only making suggestions, not telling you. You seem to read everything literally, have no slack for interpretations, and don't help us understand your point.


Oct 22, 2012 at 07:30 PM
Phillip Reeve
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p.66 #17 · p.66 #17 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Bijltje wrote:
Does anyone know how "real" zeiss the lens is? Is it a rebranded sony lens, made by sony, designed by zeiss, like the many zeiss/ sony, or panasonic/ leica lenses out there. Or is it really a zeiss (or cosina) made lens and than shipped to sony to fit into the camera?

The calculated MFT chard kinda shows zeiss has nothing to do with it as they would show a measured chard.

douglasf13 wrote:
Sony ZA lenses, and I assume this RX1 lens, are designed by Zeiss in cooperation with Sony, and they're built by Sony under Zeiss QC. All of the Zeiss ZA lenses show this type of mtf chart.

link

I am pretty sure that this info is not correct. All Sony-Zeiss Lenses are developed by Sony and have to fulfill certain criteria as defined by Zeiss.

My sources: A thread in a german forum in german as translated by google translate.


Some quotes: (the autor, Stephan Kölliker had some direct contacts to Sony before he withdraw from the Sony system after it was obvious that they would no longer develop OVF-cameras):
"Die Zeiss ZA-Optiken werden von Sony gerechnet, allerdings nach Kriterien von Zeiss. Interessant ist, dass die Konstrukteure - die eigentlich wissen müssen, was sie rechnen - den eigenen "G"-Standard als besser als die Zeiss-Vorgaben betrachten. Sony-Zeiss-Optiken werden nicht in einem einzigen Werk gebaut, sondern teils in Sony-eigenen Werken und teils ausgelagert (ich spreche da von den Vollformat-Optiken; dass etwas dubiose ZA 16-80mm sei mal aussen vor gelasssen). Zudem ist aus den Objektiv-Querschnitten z. B. des MinAF 3.5/17-35mm G (Minolta), des MinAF 2.8-4/17-35mm D (Tamron) und des Sony-Zeiss ZA 2.8/16-35mm eine enge Verwandtschaft der Konstruktionen ersichtlich - was die Aussagen von D. Klipatrick natürlich stützt."

my attempt of fixing the google translation:
"The Zeiss ZA-optics are calculated by Sony, but after criteria from Zeiss. Interestingly, the designers - who actually need to know what they do - regard their own "G" standard as better than the Zeiss specifications. Sony Zeiss optics are not built in a single work, but partly in Sony's plants and partly outsourced (I speak here of the full-frame optics, disregarding that somewhat dubious ZA 16-80mm ). In addition, from the cross-sections of eg. the MinAF 3.5/17-35mm G (Minolta), the MinAF 2.8-4/17-35mm D (Tamron) and the Sony Zeiss ZA 2.8/16-35mm you can see a close relationship between the constructions - naturally this supports D. Klipatricks statement.

Another quote from Matthias Paul, Admin of mi-fo.de and not someone who bases his claims on speculation:
"Zeiss hat mir, auf dieses Thema angesprochen, auf der photokina explizit gesagt, daß die ZA-Objektive von Sony entwickelt und durch Sony in Japan produziert werden. Zeiss' Anteil in dieser Kooperation ist es, die Einhaltung bestimmter von Zeiss vorgegebener Kriterien zu überprüfen, bevor ein Sony-Objektiv das Zeiss-Label tragen darf. "

"When i asked them at photokina, Zeiss explicedly told me that the ZA lenses are developed by Sony and produced by Sony in Japan. Zeiss' share in this co-operation is to verify compliance with certain criteria specified by Zeiss, before a Sony lens may carry the Zeiss label. "



Oct 22, 2012 at 07:39 PM
alundeb
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p.66 #18 · p.66 #18 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


So they are Sony lenses "approved by Zeiss". Interesting and somewhat shocking info.


Oct 22, 2012 at 07:50 PM
carstenw
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p.66 #19 · p.66 #19 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


I recall hearing before what you stated in this post. One comment, on one part of this:

Phillip Reeve wrote:
"Die Zeiss ZA-Optiken werden von Sony gerechnet, allerdings nach Kriterien von Zeiss. Interessant ist, dass die Konstrukteure - die eigentlich wissen müssen, was sie rechnen - den eigenen "G"-Standard als besser als die Zeiss-Vorgaben betrachten."

my attempt of fixing the google translation:
"The Zeiss ZA-optics are calculated by Sony, but after criteria from Zeiss. Interestingly, the designers - who actually need to know what they do - regard their own "G" standard as better than the Zeiss specifications.


If this is really the case, then I would call that acting in bad faith on Sony's part. If they have the design and construction under their own control, then the only reason they could possibly have for making the G lenses better is because they choose to do so, not because of any short-coming on Zeiss' behalf. In other words, Sony wants the G lenses to be better than their pseudo-Zeiss lenses.

(I leave unmentioned the assumption that Zeiss' criteria do not prevent making good lenses.)

I have to admit that I am a bit bothered by Zeiss playing fast and easy with their label. Clearly a Nokia cellphone lens is not as good as a real Zeiss lens, and it appears that Sony ZA lenses aren't either. Aren't they prostituting their brand?



Oct 22, 2012 at 08:12 PM
Edgars Kalnins
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p.66 #20 · p.66 #20 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)


Yes, quite shocking indeed! I am sure Sony is able to make some very good lenses on their own. In this case they have tweaked the designs a bit to be able to brand them as Zeiss. It would be quite something if at the end it would be proven that ZA is as far from Zeiss as say canon or nikon and the king has been naked all along .
The same thing is most likely true of Leica branded optics for m43?



Oct 22, 2012 at 08:21 PM
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