Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

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michaelwatkins
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p.63 #1 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Fujifilm kept retail prices on the X100 high for some time, and due to what was probably artificial supply constraints in some market areas, resale prices for the camera were kept high for quite a while too. Thanks to what was then still high demand and short supply I sold my X100 for $100 less than I paid for it new, after using it extensively for a number of months.

Could that experience translate to the RX1? Maybe, maybe not. At more than double the cost of the X100 intro price (in my market), the RX1 certainly appeals to a smaller pool of potential buyers.

Then again if Sony produces and/or makes available enough only to keep supply tight, prices will be maintained.

In the early days my expectation is that supply won't be sufficient to meet demand at least in the larger urban centres my assumption is that I'd be able to resell the camera for more or less what I pay for it if on handling it I have a sudden epiphany and realize I've been kidding myself.

Going out on a limb, it wouldn't surprise me if some sell RX1s for more than list in the early days assuming supply is, or at least feels, constrained.

Oct 14, 2012 at 02:03 AM

sebboh
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p.63 #2 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

rirakuma wrote:
I have a feeling the camera will depreciate as soon as you take it out of the box due to the lack of demand. Its going to be a fantastic camera for sure but its unlikely that it can compete the cameras coming out in 5 years time. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying its a bad camera, I just have a strong feeling that it will lose value very quick mostly due to the high price and the lens being fixed. Kinda reminds me of the D3X, great camera and very expensive for many but for those who use it professionally its a worthy purchase.

i hope your right. my plan is to buy one off of one of the early adopters when they get excited about the next new thing.

Oct 14, 2012 at 06:54 AM

JonasY
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p.63 #3 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

This is going to be a classic camera. Mark my words.

People here seems to assume that there soon will be a fullframe EVIL camera with Leica-sized lenses and priced as a NEX-7. A more realistic view is that such system is a few years away, and that both the size of lenses and prices will be a bit disappointment. The RX1 is here today (well) with an amazing size, IQ and a reasonable price tag.

Oct 14, 2012 at 01:32 PM

alundeb
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p.63 #4 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Bijltje wrote:
But when I say for the same money as the RX1 u can also get a used M9 I get the reaction the M9's sensor is old school with bad high iso and not up to the RX1 sensor.

Why would a person who apparently does care about sensors a lot, else he would point out the M9's old sensor, not think the same when the RX1's sensor is 2 or 3 years old?

Two important factors:

The M9 was released at the same time as the D3s. The D3s had top high iso performance at that time, and still has, the M9 not. People feel that the M9 doesn't deliver on the sensor side for high ISO because it was not the best you could get when it was new, not because it is 3 years old now. The RX1 will likely be on top from start, giving it a much longer timespan of modernity.

Sensor improvements for ISO do not grow exponentially. They approach the theoretical maximum for photon shot noise asymptotically. We cannot expect the same level of improvements in the future as we had up till now.

Oct 14, 2012 at 04:31 PM

michaelwatkins
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p.63 #5 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

... and people are *still* buying M9's and now M-Es albeit for less than MSRP of the M9 at launch.

My completely uninformed guess is Sony keeps producing the RX1 for at least 2 - 3 years if not a little longer. Starting out with a if not the leading edge full frame sensor gives it some time to run.

I'm thinking they follow up next not with a jazzed up RX1 but instead with a successor to the highly popular RX100. Maybe a RX200 APS-C camera with a decent quality zoom?

Oct 14, 2012 at 05:09 PM

itai195
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p.63 #6 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

JonasY wrote:
This is going to be a classic camera. Mark my words.

People here seems to assume that there soon will be a fullframe EVIL camera with Leica-sized lenses and priced as a NEX-7. A more realistic view is that such system is a few years away, and that both the size of lenses and prices will be a bit disappointment. The RX1 is here today (well) with an amazing size, IQ and a reasonable price tag.

Yeah, I agree with this. I'm still on the fence regarding getting an RX1, but I think it's a milestone camera and there will always be some demand for it if only from camera collectors. I also wouldn't expect its price to drop all that precipitously even if an interchangeable lens variant comes out in the next couple of years. A compact, high quality camera with a great sensor and lens will have no problem maintaining value.

I'd be satisfied if the RX1 depreciates along the same schedule as the X100 has, and the X100 was up against a similar interchangeable system barely a year after its release.

Oct 14, 2012 at 06:40 PM

michaelwatkins
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p.63 #7 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Today I noticed the Sony.CA store has changed the pre-order date for NEW orders - Estimated ship date: 02/05/2013

Until recently the date was one of either December 10th or 19th.

Sony.US continues to show an ETA of December 19th, for now.

Canada already sold their quota... which country shall be next?

Oct 14, 2012 at 10:04 PM

Visuals
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p.63 #8 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

One thing is for sure,

Sony is shaking things up big time! This technology was available years ago, but Canon and Nikon avoided it because they wanted to box consumers into Big Camera = Better quality / Small Camera = Crappy quality so choose.

Sony is putting everything we ever needed into smaller and smaller packages along with the M43 movement. Our choices has never been better.

I had the Sony Nex 5
I had the Olympus OMD
I had the Panasonic GF1/2
I had Canon 20D
I had Nikon D300

(So what I love gear)

Now I just settled on an RX100 and my Iphone5

Happy!

Waiting for that APSC zoom in the RX200

Oct 15, 2012 at 01:27 PM

michaelwatkins
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p.63 #9 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

PopPhoto.com published some sample images made with the RX1:

http://www.popphoto.com/gallery/sample-image-gallery-sony-cyber-shot-rx1

Of note - samples 7 and 8 were shot at ISO 50; this is the first time I've seen an image or other reference to use of ISO50 for the camera other than on a Japanese language spec sheet. It may also be that sensitivity can be pulled below what I assume base ISO at 100 in 1/3 stops.

If use of ISO 50 isn't unduly hurting image quality this reduced sensitivity level will be of help when shooting wide open as the leaf shutter tops out at 1/2000th of a second @f/2.

Oct 17, 2012 at 10:58 AM

Kyndel
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p.63 #10 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

michaelwatkins wrote:
PopPhoto.com published some sample images made with the RX1:

http://www.popphoto.com/gallery/sample-image-gallery-sony-cyber-shot-rx1

Of note - samples 7 and 8 were shot at ISO 50; this is the first time I've seen an image or other reference to use of ISO50 for the camera other than on a Japanese language spec sheet. It may also be that sensitivity can be pulled below what I assume base ISO at 100 in 1/3 stops.

If use of ISO 50 isn't unduly hurting image quality this reduced sensitivity level will be of help when shooting wide open as the leaf shutter tops out at 1/2000th of a second @f/2.

Thanks for sharing this link.

I am very interested in this camera and buy it probably due fullframe in such a lovely small and light camera, and it also seems fine iso-performance and OK bokeh, but there is no extraordinary sharpness or contrast of these images (or any other for that matter, I 've seen from this camera/lens) -and not any special fine color rendering it's like other cameras in the 20-24 megapixel range, but this was probably also too much to hope for..

Thanks to the photographer for not doing PP before publishing those photos.

But again: It is a very interesting camera, and I think I will go for it.

About:

"as the leaf shutter tops out at 1/2000th of a second @f/2."

As I understand it will be 1/4000 second for the f. 2.0 and then 1/2000 with smaller apertures, .....do not recall where the change happens from 1/4.000 to 1/2.000

Oct 17, 2012 at 12:48 PM

michaelwatkins
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p.63 #11 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Kyndel,

With regards to shutter duration, your understanding needs to be reversed.

At maximum aperture there is too much open lens element distance to cover for the leaf shutter to close in time, so while wide open at f/2 the shutter is limited to 1/2000th of a second. By f/5.6 the blades have made the opening smaller of course and the shutter can travel that distance in less time thus you then have access to 1/4000th. I assume partial steps exist in between.

In contrast the Fujifilm X100 is limited to 1/1000th of a second at f/2, reaching 1/4000 only by f/8, but it has an integrated 3 stop neutral density filter to overcome this limitation.

I prefer the Sony approach as I'm convinced the ND filter in the X100 made flare worse in some conditions, and it was a pain to engage via menu diving if your user-defined function button(s) were otherwise in use.

As for the photos - there have been a lot of out of focus photos published by various parties but also some good ones. I'm almost concerned about the camera's autofocus system except that some photographers do not seem to be having issues so it may just be skill level. This latest series seems to be all about wider apertures and out of focus areas in behind the subject and the focus point isn't necessarily hit.

Oct 17, 2012 at 01:37 PM

ken.vs.ryu
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p.63 #12 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Digital files benefit from over exposure so the 1/2000 @f/2 isn't a concern.

My biggest concern is sneaking one past the wife.

Oct 17, 2012 at 02:10 PM

wolfloid
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p.63 #13 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Digital files benefit from over exposure so the 1/2000 @f/2 isn't a concern.

Tell that to the blown-highlights police!

Oct 17, 2012 at 02:35 PM

Phillip Reeve
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p.63 #14 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

ken.vs.ryu wrote:
Digital files benefit from over exposure
could you elaborate a bit on that?

Oct 17, 2012 at 02:51 PM

Makten
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p.63 #15 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

ken.vs.ryu wrote:
Digital files benefit from over exposure so the 1/2000 @f/2 isn't a concern.

Of course they don't. But they benefit from exposing as high as possible, without overexposing.
Now, unfortunately you don't know exactly when a channel will blow since the temperature of light affects the white balance, and you can't see the raw data from the sensor. But exposing ~1 stop higher than a neutral JPG setting allows, is generally OK when shooting raw.

Oct 17, 2012 at 03:12 PM

sebboh
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p.63 #16 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Makten wrote:
ken.vs.ryu wrote:
Digital files benefit from over exposure so the 1/2000 @f/2 isn't a concern.

Of course they don't. But they benefit from exposing as high as possible, without overexposing.
Now, unfortunately you don't know exactly when a channel will blow since the temperature of light affects the white balance, and you can't see the raw data from the sensor. But exposing ~1 stop higher than a neutral JPG setting allows, is generally OK when shooting raw.

usually true, but sometimes you'll still lose some deep colors. with sony's latest sensors i'd rather just bring up shadows than try to walk the fine line of exposing to the right.

Oct 17, 2012 at 03:43 PM

ken.vs.ryu
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p.63 #17 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Phillip Reeve wrote:
ken.vs.ryu wrote:
Digital files benefit from over exposure
could you elaborate a bit on that?

it's the "expose to the right" method. I use raw photo processor which suggests that manufacturers usually use a low gray point value and underexpose shots.

Oct 17, 2012 at 04:05 PM

carstenw
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p.63 #18 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Yes, but exposing to the right and over-exposing are completely different things. You certainly don't want to ever clip the highlights in digital; it looks horrible. Exposing to the right actually might on occasion force you to under-expose...

Oct 17, 2012 at 06:55 PM

Kyndel
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p.63 #19 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

michaelwatkins wrote:
Kyndel,

With regards to shutter duration, your understanding needs to be reversed.

At maximum aperture there is too much open lens element distance to cover for the leaf shutter to close in time, so while wide open at f/2 the shutter is limited to 1/2000th of a second. By f/5.6 the blades have made the opening smaller of course and the shutter can travel that distance in less time thus you then have access to 1/4000th. I assume partial steps exist in between.

In contrast the Fujifilm X100 is limited to 1/1000th of a second at f/2, reaching 1/4000 only by f/8, but it has an integrated 3 stop neutral density filter to overcome this limitation.

I prefer the Sony approach as I'm convinced the ND filter in the X100 made flare worse in some conditions, and it was a pain to engage via menu diving if your user-defined function button(s) were otherwise in use.

As for the photos - there have been a lot of out of focus photos published by various parties but also some good ones. I'm almost concerned about the camera's autofocus system except that some photographers do not seem to be having issues so it may just be skill level. This latest series seems to be all about wider apertures and out of focus areas in behind the subject and the focus point isn't necessarily hit.

Here is the right text (from Dpreview), and you are right:

"Meanwhile, the camera's fastest shutter speed has been amended. We questioned Sony at the time of the announcement why the shutter speed wasn't able to increase for smaller apertures (which is normal behavior for a lens shutter, where the shutter has a shorter distance to travel at small apertures). The company has announced that 1/4000th shutter speeds will be available when using apertures smaller than F5.6. 1/3200th will be available at apertures smaller than F4 and 1/2000th will remain the fastest shutter speed available when working with apertures brighter than F4."

---

I think you have "to be reversed" .) because we are talking about f. 8-pictures ?

Oct 17, 2012 at 07:21 PM

AhamB
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p.63 #20 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

carstenw wrote:
Yes, but exposing to the right and over-exposing are completely different things. You certainly don't want to ever clip the highlights in digital; it looks horrible. Exposing to the right actually might on occasion force you to under-expose...

Agreed, although depending on the accuracy of the camera's histogram, you might be able to clip some of the highlights and still have enough headroom in the RAW file to recover them easily.

Oct 17, 2012 at 08:44 PM

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