Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

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Yakim Peled
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p.114 #1 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

tulaev wrote:
Yakim Peled wrote:
I'm sure some will like the added functionality of a zoom lens + a quality EVF despite the added bulk.

I think that the number of such people will be too small to justify the project. The best thing in RX1 is combination of quality and small size.

This is quite possible, but as with any groundbreaking project, one can never truly predict the public's reaction.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.

Feb 25, 2013 at 11:14 PM

philip_pj
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p.114 #2 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Agree with everything you wrote alundeb. What happens is the camera is a new paradigm but people want a reference to the older concepts or wonder why it cannot be done. FF coverage is the reason, plus retaining dimensions/weight, and you give up a bit of flexibilty to get a lot back in sheer usage and output.

What do people think of the idea of a multi lens set for an RX2?

Put another way, could Sony (i) build a mount onto the RX1 platform with a suitable short reg distance, (ii) make pretty close facsimiles of the CZ 35/2 Sonnar (with leaf shutters) at other FLs that are 'as good' and within say 15% the size? 25-(35)-50-85 say. Only possible for CZ obviously, for now. Integrated EVF too. Now that would change the market more broadly - a low compromise small system with good flexibility, on full frame.

Feb 26, 2013 at 12:40 AM

philip_pj
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p.114 #3 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

The RX1 drawing style is an interesting point you raise, and is one reason why many tend to look overly closely at the 'sharpness' maybe, as the rendering is an acquired taste.

I have been doing 'due diligence' on this camera, and I see a lot of guys like Steve Huff and others say they love to use it because it makes such compelling fine images very easily, of which he has many examples - this is pure drawing style IMO, plus sensor. No, it's no 35-70 nor should it be, but what it does do is very special to many users; and the 35-70 will never be a 'street' lens, for instance, or for outstanding bokeh imagery.

For DSLR use, it is not either/or but this: If you go from a lot of wide/normal/long views and multi-FL needs into a dark building or enclosed space - swap cameras, get out the RX1. If you have another person with you and you need high quality general images from them - give them the RX1 and use auto ISO at f2-f2.8. You want to do a walk around for discreet street shots, take the RX1. Picnics, family outings, work photos...it goes on. So this what appears to be narrow focus specialised camera turns out to exactly the opposite, in reality.

Feb 26, 2013 at 12:40 AM

tulaev
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p.114 #4 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

"Overall Camera of the Year"
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/02/25/imaging-resource-camera-of-the-year-awards-2012

Feb 26, 2013 at 05:36 AM

_julian_
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p.114 #5 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Is the RX1 output really better than a M9 or type 240 equipped with a ZM Biogon 35/2? Given the choice, I think I prefer the all metal build and manual focus lens.

Feb 26, 2013 at 06:04 AM

pdmphoto
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p.114 #6 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

The lens tests of the RX1 all seem to be at closer distances, where the lens is very good (minus the vignetting, distortion, and rather bland focus roll-off/bokeh). At, or near, infinity the lens doesn't do nearly as well for sharpness.

Feb 26, 2013 at 06:51 AM

wayne seltzer
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p.114 #7 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

pdmphoto wrote:
The lens tests of the RX1 all seem to be at closer distances, where the lens is very good (minus the vignetting, distortion, and rather bland focus roll-off/bokeh). At, or near, infinity the lens doesn't do nearly as well for sharpness.
What are you basing this on? What side by side comparison shots do you have that support this?
Do you even have a RX1?

Feb 26, 2013 at 10:33 AM

tulaev
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p.114 #8 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

pdmphoto wrote:
The lens tests of the RX1 all seem to be at closer distances, where the lens is very good (minus the vignetting, distortion, and rather bland focus roll-off/bokeh). At, or near, infinity the lens doesn't do nearly as well for sharpness.
Complete nonsense! See links to tests in this thread.

Edited on Feb 27, 2013 at 06:09 AM · View previous versions

Feb 26, 2013 at 12:23 PM

Yakim Peled
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p.114 #9 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

tulaev wrote:
"Overall Camera of the Year"
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/02/25/imaging-resource-camera-of-the-year-awards-2012

Well, it deserves it. A truly unique concept.

Happy shooting.
Yakim.

Feb 26, 2013 at 02:18 PM

joe88
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p.114 #10 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

pdmphoto wrote:
...... where the lens is very good (minus the vignetting, distortion, and rather bland focus roll-off/bokeh) .....

The barrel distortion on the RX1 is what bothers me the most, otherwise I am really happy with it, but this is nit picking and coming from comparing with my M lenses such as an older 35Cron, 35Lux ASPH and my current 35Lux FLE which have less distortion. The bokeh on the RX1 is gorgeous and really smooth and I like it as much as my previous 35Lux ASPH v1 which says a lot. Hard to actually compare sharpness between the RX1 and my Leica M9 with a Leica 35mm lens because they have different sensors and I'm not technical inclined enough to carry out a detailed review, but I can say again, as I said earlier, the RX1 is sharp!

Feb 26, 2013 at 02:19 PM

wayne seltzer
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p.114 #11 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Imaging resource review mentions that cross frame sharpness wide open performance was increased at the expense of having more distortion.
The DxO distortion messurement is .7% forthe RX1 and .4% for zeiss 35/2 and 35/1.4 and .6% for Samyang 35/1.4 just for comparison. 35lux m has FC which Denoir showed to ruin distant landscape shots. Simple barrel distortion can be corrected at loss of some resolution. How much in this case would be interesting to show.

Feb 26, 2013 at 04:24 PM

philip_pj
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p.114 #12 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

I have not read any user anywhere actually 'complain' about the distortion levels, it's generally just another moaning point impartial people touch on before passing on to the stellar image quality. Distortion is the easiest aberration to correct in post, and the least damaging of final image quality. IR I believe report the RX1 level as 'average'. Many great lenses of this FL range have much more.

Gary Friedmann has a (to me) interesting piece on distortion correction in-camera for jpgs and as an instruction set to RAW files (and LR4.3 corrects in its profile for the RX1 camera):

"It turns out that the RX-100 is not the only camera to do this - other high-end cameras have been doing it for years. Every single Hasselblad H-series body (those with a dedicated digital back) corrects for its 28mm f/4 lens this way, as has Phase One. And that Leica S system? Yup. All the lenses are imperfect and corrected digitally."

http://friedmanarchives.blogspot.com.au/2012/10/the-most-distortion-ridden-zeiss-lens.html

Paul, you can, if your level of curiosity exceeds your level of unsupported opinion, do more reading and viewing on the 'only good at close distance' meme. I would say the implication - that the lens is quite poor at infinity or let's say medium-long distances - is probably incorrect; it is also unreported in my readings, maybe 15 reviews now.

Examples of good such images are abundant. Someone may do us a comparo between say, a ZE 35/1.4 and an RX1 carefully focused on a distant object - facts being what they are, that would be good to see, because you may still be right despite the evidence to the contrary and the (presumably) infinity MTF charts way back in this thread. It is an open question, but the door is only a crack open..

Feb 26, 2013 at 09:04 PM

joe88
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p.114 #13 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

So you hear it from me first

I am used to shooting with my Leica 35mm lenses with less distortion (almost not noticeable even without correction in software -it may well be corrected in the M9, I dont know) and I find the RX1 noticeable and just a tiny bit annoying but its nothing, like I said just nit picking and for the sake of discussing in a forum. I initially expected a $2.8k camera and lens combo to be well corrected physically but I guess with it was not possible given the other constrains on the overall design.

I don't know much about DSLR lenses performances. Wayne, I normally stop down for infinity on the 35Lux ASPH, so I probably have not noticed FC on that lens.

Feb 27, 2013 at 12:01 AM

charles.K
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p.114 #14 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Yakim Peled wrote:
tulaev wrote:
"Overall Camera of the Year"
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2013/02/25/imaging-resource-camera-of-the-year-awards-2012

Well, it deserves it. A truly unique concept.

Happy shooting.
Yakim.

I completely agree here with Joe and others that have the RX1, in that lens and sensor combo yields very sharp photos with amazing low light capabilities and DR. Yes there is some distortion correction, that may be needed, but it is a very simple step in LR now. The 35 mm Zeiss is a Sonnar design, and it has the wonderful rendering characteristics, and I personally prefer this over a clinically very sharp distortion corrected lens, without personality. The 35 Sonnar, behaves more like a 35 Cron, and I truly applaud Sony for their courage to make this a commercial reality!

Feb 27, 2013 at 01:01 AM

wayne seltzer
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p.114 #15 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

joe88 wrote:
So you hear it from me first

Feb 27, 2013 at 03:58 AM

joe88
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p.114 #16 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Wayne, I might need to test my lens out as I normally shoot with infinity in focus at f/8 to f/11 and never really noticed it, but then again, I wasn't shooting landscapes. Thanks for the info. I agree that not all Leica lenses are perfect, for instance, on the 50Lux ASPH, FC is present even wide open and I have noticed that in many of my pics.

Feb 27, 2013 at 05:02 AM

Makten
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p.114 #17 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

What is "FC"?

Feb 27, 2013 at 07:07 AM

Jochenb
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p.114 #18 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

Makten wrote:
What is "FC"?

Field curvature

Feb 27, 2013 at 07:10 AM

philip_pj
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p.114 #19 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

As good as Leica R is for what it does best, landscapes do not appear to be among the strengths, at least for the wider lenses - honourable exception for the 28/2.8 v2, perhaps 1-2 others. It's not just the painterly flat rendering, but the wandering roller coaster MTF lines (FC and unresolved aberrations, the trade-off to gain the great centres), esp the critical 40lpmm pair. The 50mm Summicron is pretty good. Some others are OK by f8 or so.

Denoir posted an image of a ship in one of those picturesque ports up there, shot with an M lens from memory, the rear half was good and well-shaped, but the front end looked horrible - the thing actually looked like it had a hinge in the middle of it. He helpfully placed an overlay of the zonal MTF variation. Curvy lines and landscapes do not mix, as the definition changes fast with distance from image centre - it's different if the lines slowly decline - the Zeiss way, sometimes with FC added in, and astigmatism in the Sonnars.

This being an RX1 thread, looks like we may (will) see more in the RX1 family, be mad if they do not:

Exposure Magazine reports a sentence from Danu Sagoro, Product Marketing Manager, Digital Imaging Group, PT Sony Indonesia. He says: “Sony is now developing full-frame camera families consisting of full-frame Alpha, full-frame handycam and *full-frame Cyber-shot* families,”.

Feb 27, 2013 at 11:33 AM

wayne seltzer
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p.114 #20 · Sony RX1 FF Mirrorless (fixed lens)

joe88 wrote:
Wayne, I might need to test my lens out as I normally shoot with infinity in focus at f/8 to f/11 and never really noticed it, but then again, I wasn't shooting landscapes. Thanks for the info. I agree that not all Leica lenses are perfect, for instance, on the 50Lux ASPH, FC is present even wide open and I have noticed that in many of my pics.

I went through the Lofoten 2011 thread but could not find the example m 35 lux landscape shot where Luka showed crops of the far distant background and how the FC made it blur more towards the sides. Must have been in the Leica thread some time just after that trip.
FC is more noticesble in such grand vista type shots in which there is foreground subject that you focus on and also have a background object like a mountain ridge running across the frame in a plane parallel to the face of the lens/camera.
FC does not bother everyone but it is lens fault/behavior which software ca not fix unlike simple barrel distortion.
Some use it to advantage in composing the shot.
Z* 28/2 and ZF 25/2.8 being the zeiss lenses with a lot of FC. 50/2MP and Z*25/2 have a little which affects the extreme corners. Also Z* 35/1.4 has some FC.

Feb 27, 2013 at 05:20 PM

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