How much sharpness do you need?

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Bifurcator
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p.10 #1 · How much sharpness do you need?

jcolwell wrote:
sebboh wrote:
Bifurcator wrote:
carstenw,
Of course. We can use mathematics to "prove" all kinds of things that aren't true.

no. ...

Of course, some results are imaginary.

That too!

sebboh wrote:
Bifurcator wrote:
carstenw,
Of course. We can use mathematics to "prove" all kinds of things that aren't true.

no.

maybe to people who don't understand math?

Well, that statement means you really don't understand mathematics. Honestly...

Aug 29, 2012 at 10:00 PM

mh2000
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p.10 #2 · How much sharpness do you need?

Math is an abstract idealization, when you attempt to use it to prove anything in the real messy world you are are forced to make assumptions and approximations. When your math proves something that is wrong, it only means that your assumptions of the problem were wrong, not that the math was wrong.

sebboh wrote:
Bifurcator wrote:
carstenw,
Of course. We can use mathematics to "prove" all kinds of things that aren't true.

no.

maybe to people who don't understand math?

Aug 29, 2012 at 10:11 PM

Bifurcator
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p.10 #3 · How much sharpness do you need?

Exactly! Notice I did not say: "We can use mathematics to prove that math is untrue". rather I said: "We can use mathematics to "prove" all kinds of things which aren't [actually] true."

Edited on Aug 29, 2012 at 10:17 PM · View previous versions

Aug 29, 2012 at 10:15 PM

artd
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p.10 #4 · How much sharpness do you need?

mh2000 wrote:
True, but instead of "sharpness" I'd say that resolution is probably more important... IE. large prints from a larger format camera with higher resolution will be much more important than small changes in lens sharpness on a smaller camera. A mediocre lens on a LF body will produce better large prints than a top lens mounted on a FF DSLR.

artd wrote:
In photography, sharpness counts "a lot" if it is required to fulfill your artistic vision*.

If your artistic vision is to have large prints with exquisitely fine details, some gear will do that better than other gear. That's just a fact. It's not really about "chasing gear" but about understanding what gear is required to fulfill your purposes.

*(In the instance of commercial photography, replace "your artistic vision" with "your client's expectations.")

Any image sufficiently in focus will look sharp if you decrease it to a small enough resolution. To go back to the original post, is was observed that some of Ansel Adams' prints appeared soft. Had they been printed smaller, they would likely have appeared much sharper.

But we're mostly playing in the realm of semantics at this stage anyway. Whether we want to talk about "sharpness" or "resolution" or "resolving power" or "MTF" or any other closely related terms...the main point I want to make is that while you don't need expensive gear to make good photographs, you do need a certain level of gear if you are interested in making a certain types of photographs.

In a broad sense good photography doesn't need to rely on sharpness, any more than good sharpness is responsible for creating a good photo. But photography which emphasizes a high level of detail does indeed rely on sharpness.

Aug 29, 2012 at 10:15 PM

Bifurcator
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p.10 #5 · How much sharpness do you need?

agreed!

Aug 29, 2012 at 10:20 PM

sebboh
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p.10 #6 · How much sharpness do you need?

mh2000 wrote:
Math is an abstract idealization, when you attempt to use it to prove anything in the real messy world you are are forced to make assumptions and approximations. When your math proves something that is wrong, it only means that your assumptions of the problem were wrong, not that the math was wrong.

when you use math to prove anything other than an abstract idealization it ceases to be math, it becomes engineering, physics, or (god forbid) economics. anything you can prove with math IS true (and probably not relevant to the real world).

Aug 29, 2012 at 11:28 PM

jcolwell
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p.10 #7 · How much sharpness do you need?

What about stats?

Aug 30, 2012 at 12:35 AM

jcolwell
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p.10 #8 · How much sharpness do you need?

Seriously, I forgot to address the OP question.

"How much sharpness do you need?"... How much can I have?

P.S. does it cease to be 'math' when it quantifies?

Aug 30, 2012 at 12:37 AM

mh2000
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p.10 #9 · How much sharpness do you need?

Sure, that's what I meant, all you can prove with math is math.

I think the most retarted example of "proving" something that is wrong is that by some simple theory, a bumble bee cannot fly...

sebboh wrote:
mh2000 wrote:
Math is an abstract idealization, when you attempt to use it to prove anything in the real messy world you are are forced to make assumptions and approximations. When your math proves something that is wrong, it only means that your assumptions of the problem were wrong, not that the math was wrong.

when you use math to prove anything other than an abstract idealization it ceases to be math, it becomes engineering, physics, or (god forbid) economics. anything you can prove with math IS true (and probably not relevant to the real world).

Aug 30, 2012 at 12:38 AM

mh2000
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p.10 #10 · How much sharpness do you need?

I was responding to the "If your artistic vision is to have large prints with exquisitely fine details" portion and this takes resolution to support the detail. No matter how sharp an image, when printed to 72dpi on a print, you will not have a sharp looking image when viewed at a close distance.

You need a minimum resolution to print to a certain size. You need sharpness and resolution to produce fine detail.

artd wrote:
mh2000 wrote:
True, but instead of "sharpness" I'd say that resolution is probably more important... IE. large prints from a larger format camera with higher resolution will be much more important than small changes in lens sharpness on a smaller camera. A mediocre lens on a LF body will produce better large prints than a top lens mounted on a FF DSLR.

artd wrote:
In photography, sharpness counts "a lot" if it is required to fulfill your artistic vision*.

If your artistic vision is to have large prints with exquisitely fine details, some gear will do that better than other gear. That's just a fact. It's not really about "chasing gear" but about understanding what gear is required to fulfill your purposes.

*(In the instance of commercial photography, replace "your artistic vision" with "your client's expectations.")

Any image sufficiently in focus will look sharp if you decrease it to a small enough resolution. To go back to the original post, is was observed that some of Ansel Adams' prints appeared soft. Had they been printed smaller, they would likely have appeared much sharper.

But we're mostly playing in the realm of semantics at this stage anyway. Whether we want to talk about "sharpness" or "resolution" or "resolving power" or "MTF" or any other closely related terms...the main point I want to make is that while you don't need expensive gear to make good photographs, you do need a certain level of gear if you are interested in making a certain types of photographs.

In a broad sense good photography doesn't need to rely on sharpness, any more than good sharpness is responsible for creating a good photo. But photography which emphasizes a high level of detail does indeed rely on sharpness.

Aug 30, 2012 at 12:43 AM

sebboh
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p.10 #11 · How much sharpness do you need?

jcolwell wrote:
P.S. does it cease to be 'math' when it quantifies?

yes. ask any mathematician.

Aug 30, 2012 at 01:59 AM

LoneShadow
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p.10 #12 · How much sharpness do you need?

sebboh wrote:
jcolwell wrote:
P.S. does it cease to be 'math' when it quantifies?

yes. ask any mathematician.

We will probably need "how much mathness do you need?" thread to answer that

Aug 30, 2012 at 03:35 AM

LoneShadow
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p.10 #13 · How much sharpness do you need?

The quality of photos seen in 7d/5d compared to 50d for the same lens is much better. Would this be just extra resolution from the sensor?

Aug 30, 2012 at 03:39 AM

Bifurcator
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p.10 #14 · How much sharpness do you need?

mathematics |maθ(ə )ˈmatiks|
plural noun [usu. treated as sing. ]
the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( applied mathematics).
• [often treated as pl. ] the mathematical aspects of something : the mathematics of general relativity.

It can't be much clearer than that.

And of course:

mathematician |ˌmaθ(ə )məˈti sh ən|
noun
an expert in or student of mathematics.

There's no need to mystify it.

Aug 30, 2012 at 08:36 AM

mh2000
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p.10 #15 · How much sharpness do you need?

All things are not equal, but all things matter to some extent.

LoneShadow wrote:
The quality of photos seen in 7d/5d compared to 50d for the same lens is much better. Would this be just extra resolution from the sensor?

Aug 30, 2012 at 02:46 PM

mh2000
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p.10 #16 · How much sharpness do you need?

And to apply math to anything real you have to make assumptions, this is where the errors lie. Some assumptions are better than other, some give useful predictions, others garbage.

Bifurcator wrote:

mathematics |maθ(ə )ˈmatiks|
plural noun [usu. treated as sing. ]
the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right ( pure mathematics), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering ( applied mathematics).
• [often treated as pl. ] the mathematical aspects of something : the mathematics of general relativity.

It can't be much clearer than that.

And of course:

mathematician |ˌmaθ(ə )məˈti sh ən|
noun
an expert in or student of mathematics.

There's no need to mystify it.

Aug 30, 2012 at 02:48 PM

Toothwalker
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p.10 #17 · How much sharpness do you need?

Bifurcator wrote:
I thought we already established that they basically are the same thing and that "sharpness" doesn't actually exist as a quantifiable attribute? In the Bifurcator Photographic Dictionary anyway, resolution and "sharpness" are two hairs of the same horse.

The physical units of resolution and contrast are different, these quantities are thus not the same. Both are quantifiable, unlike sharpness, which is a subjective perception.

Whenever resolution or contrast is being quantified, the used definition/criterion should be mentioned.

If there exists a formal definition of microcontrast, someone did a good job hiding it. I doubt the Bifurcator Photographic Dictionary offers a definition, but it doesn't really matter since it lacks authority.

Aug 30, 2012 at 04:06 PM

jcolwell
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p.10 #18 · How much sharpness do you need?

I consider "sharpness" to be the combined effect of resolution and contrast. I think resolution is the most basic property for sharpness, with contrast modifying the apparent resolution, or sharpness. YMMV.

Aug 30, 2012 at 04:53 PM

artd
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p.10 #19 · How much sharpness do you need?

mh2000 wrote:
I was responding to the "If your artistic vision is to have large prints with exquisitely fine details" portion and this takes resolution to support the detail. No matter how sharp an image, when printed to 72dpi on a print, you will not have a sharp looking image when viewed at a close distance.

I'm not disagreeing. You need the resolution on the back end (sensor or film). You also need the resolving power on the front end (lens).

Aug 30, 2012 at 05:14 PM

Bifurcator
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p.10 #20 · How much sharpness do you need?

Bifurcator wrote:
I thought we already established that they basically are the same thing and that "sharpness" doesn't actually exist as a quantifiable attribute? In the Bifurcator Photographic Dictionary anyway, resolution and "sharpness" are two hairs of the same horse.

Toothwalker wrote:
The physical units of resolution and contrast are different, these quantities are thus not the same. Both are quantifiable, unlike sharpness, which is a subjective perception.

Whenever resolution or contrast is being quantified, the used definition/criterion should be mentioned.

If there exists a formal definition of microcontrast, someone did a good job hiding it. I doubt the Bifurcator Photographic Dictionary offers a definition, but it doesn't really matter since it lacks authority.

You question the authority of the BPD? What are you a Learian devotee from the 60's

Aug 30, 2012 at 06:33 PM

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