To the higher end shooters...

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Tony Hoffer
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p.8 #1 · To the higher end shooters...

whtrbt7 wrote:some of these yahoos

Can you clarify this please?

Aug 17, 2012 at 03:11 PM

Inku Yo
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p.8 #2 · To the higher end shooters...

whtrbt7 wrote:
Inku Yo wrote:
whtrbt7 wrote:
This business is all about running business, not taking photographs (even though that's our product). You can have a perfectly successful business with decently crappy photos. Some photographers are high end photogs. They will charge $6k per wedding because they only do like 4 weddings per year. Their photos can be anywhere between extremely awesome to absolute crap. Take that into account and then take some newer photogs like me offering weddings at less than $1k because I don't mind working more. I have the same range of anywhere between extremely awesome to absolute crap (more the latter lol). A customer takes the same risk no matter what price range the photographer is at. The only reason why customers buy things is because we sell it to them. I always try to over-deliver and my only concern is "building" business by having more and more referrals. If a customer doesn't refer you, it means that they didn't like your work/value. Every customer ideally should offer 5 referrals which starts up the multiplier effect. This is simple small business economics. You can vet a bum off the street to photograph and get the same results.

Disagreed.

T_T
I'm having a weird day.
I also don't mean any disrespect to those of you that do land $6k weddings and do like 40 of them per year. I've just had bad experiences with some of these yahoos myself and that's the other reason I offer a lower price range.

Hahah. I didn't feel disrespected at all. I should actually apologize for my one word comment. I was simply following up my "agreed" comment with "disagreed" on yours to be funny.

Although, I still do disagree with much of what you wrote. Hahaha. Maybe I will comment later when I have some time to think it through.

Aug 17, 2012 at 03:15 PM

widjayaman
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p.8 #3 · To the higher end shooters...

whtrbt7 wrote:
and that's the other reason I offer a lower price range.

And this. I'm confused.

Aug 17, 2012 at 03:16 PM

whtrbt7
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p.8 #4 · To the higher end shooters...

I had 3 photogs total in my wedding which was kinda crazy but required. 2 of them were complete amateurs running on auto/green mode. 1 of them which I paid separately was worth the money. The beach photog was definitely worth the $3k I paid him. The other 2 pretty much held photos for ransom and wouldn't deliver photos without the purchase of a bloated prints/albums/canvas package which was all low quality anyways. Part of the reason why I have the sub $1k package is for people that want their photos and can create high quality prints, albums, or canvases on their own or have me create them separately from the package. It's a customer service point which I'm very passionate about because I feel that if people just want the photos in digital format, they don't have to buy some bloated prints/album/canvas package. It allows them the freedom to do what they want with their photos.

Aug 17, 2012 at 03:34 PM

Inku Yo
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p.8 #5 · To the higher end shooters...

Aug 17, 2012 at 03:47 PM

Inku Yo
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p.8 #6 · To the higher end shooters...

^the reason why I wrote that is because I want you to think about the price difference and where the value is. For me, the value is in the images I create, not the album. Kick ass images + kick ass album = kick ass overall experience. Kick ass images + shitty album = shitty album. Shitty images + kick ass album = kick ass album with shitty images.

The album is a nice way to present you work, but as we all know, professional photographers have access to any professional album maker. All albums being equal, it's the content that will matter the most.

So, just because you're handing over the images, it shouldn't be cheap! The images are where the value is.

Aug 17, 2012 at 04:12 PM

TheGE
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p.8 #7 · To the higher end shooters...

^^^ Maybe even the couple's "experience" of the photographer is where the value mostly is. I say that because I think you know even when the photos are the most bestest ever... if the photographer soured the day somehow, that will taint the couple's perception to where they'll say, "the photos were perfect make no mistake about that. But the photographer was rude/nasty/pushy/whatever," and not be favorable any longer to that photographer where it affects further sales and referrals. The further up you are on the pay scale away from gofer-with-camera the more it's about the complete experience of you.

Aug 17, 2012 at 04:52 PM

DmitriM
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p.8 #8 · To the higher end shooters...

whtrbt7 wrote:
I had 3 photogs total in my wedding which was kinda crazy but required. 2 of them were complete amateurs running on auto/green mode. 1 of them which I paid separately was worth the money. The beach photog was definitely worth the $3k I paid him. The other 2 pretty much held photos for ransom and wouldn't deliver photos without the purchase of a bloated prints/albums/canvas package which was all low quality anyways. Part of the reason why I have the sub $1k package is for people that want their photos and can create high quality prints, albums, or canvases on their own or have me create them separately from the package. It's a customer service point which I'm very passionate about because I feel that if people just want the photos in digital format, they don't have to buy some bloated prints/album/canvas package. It allows them the freedom to do what they want with their photos.

That's total nonsense and I have no idea why you can't see that. Plus ignorance on your part by thinking everyone with 6K packages require you to have prints,canvases books,etc and they all deliver subpar quality photos. I offer the same thing for the same price with just a CD. The difference between you an me though(apart from experience) is that I don't have to shoot 150+ weddings a year as you'd have to, to make the same money I would get in a year. And you absolutely can not deliver good results by shooting 150 weddings per year.

And no, you can NOT have a successful high end business by supplying shitty photographs as you think. Just because those photographers don't have really creative fashion-like poses, it doesn't make their images shitty. What they do deliver are **really consistent** timeless photographs(more PJ than creative) without any idiotic actions,urine PS processing or other crap. Their product is very good and appeals to HIGH END clients, who is looking exactly for that.

Customer takes way bigger risk with amateurs photographers. If you really think after 20,40,60 weddings you can deliver consistent great results, you are in the la-la land...
You learn something new at each wedding and after hundreds of weddings you'll be pretty consistent with your style(whether it's pj,creative, traditional,etc) of shooting and will be making FAR FAR less mistakes.

Additionally, your idea of great referral network will fail once you will smarten up and start charging more money.
You will have a really hard time getting referrals from clients whose weddings you've shot for >$1000, if your latest prices will become 3 times as high.

And as I said in another thread, $5-6K is not high end. Those photographer don't drive lambos(apart from Hoffer who has a bunch of them...

) and live in $10mln houses. They make just enough to have a normal life. And sooner all of "budget(sub 2K) photographers realize that, sooner you can make changes to your business so that you can also start making wedding photography your full time career.

Aug 17, 2012 at 05:04 PM

whtrbt7
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p.8 #9 · To the higher end shooters...

Again, I wasn't criticizing others' operations, I'm just giving my view/opinion. As Inku Yo said, it's the images that are worth they money. I don't think the sub $1k range is cheap, I think it's reasonable for what I offer. I don't claim to be an artist or the best photographer. I'm just the business man that wants to provide an overall photographic experience that is right for the consumer. I, personally would have loved if a service provider would have offered up decent images, friendly photographers, and a good price. If I wanted the top of the top, I would have specifically booked them separate from the rest of my wedding vendors. I'm not saying that a high-end business can't be successful, I just saying that the crappy photography business can be just as successful. While it's true that $5-6k for a photographer is not high-end, it's a little higher than the industry average which is currently $2186. With weddings now costing an average of $26989, that's about an 8% share of the total cost of a wedding. A lot of people will end up having lower costing weddings for about $10-15k which is the market I'm aiming for. Spending 10% of their expenses on photography is the value that I would prefer to give them. It's just the kind of person and photographer I am to give that kind of pricing. It's not bucking the trend or even pricing myself out of the market. It's just that it's the kind of value that I prefer to give to those that want cheaper alternatives. I just cover expenses, keep customers happy, and make some money off of the business to keep things going. I'm not looking to be a superstar photographer or even a superstar businessman. When I say crappy photography, I mean acceptable images that just lack that really high quality that is exhibited by the average in the business. There can be a number of things wrong such as awkward tilts, over/under exposure, fingers on the lens, unclean lenses leading to artifacts, over processing, crummy skin smoothing, crummy processing, wrong white balance, etc..... People still make a business out of these photographs and those are the kind of people I want to put out of business. That includes the 2 photogs that took pretty bad photos during my wedding. I'm not saying that all high-end photographers try to ransom your photos with crummy "extras" packages, it's just that my wedding was a specific case. I'm a FT Photog right now but only PT with weddings since I have some extra time. So I am making money but I'm not looking to strike it rich.

Aug 17, 2012 at 06:06 PM

Access
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p.8 #10 · To the higher end shooters...

TheGE wrote:
^^^ Maybe even the couple's "experience" of the photographer is where the value mostly is. I say that because I think you know even when the photos are the most bestest ever... if the photographer soured the day somehow, that will taint the couple's perception to where they'll say, "the photos were perfect make no mistake about that. But the photographer was rude/nasty/pushy/whatever," and not be favorable any longer to that photographer where it affects further sales and referrals. The further up you are on the pay scale away from gofer-with-camera the more it's about the complete experience of you.

Yes this exactly. If you don't have that, you can try to fake it, but it shows. The whole wedding is an 'experience', and the photographer is part of that.

The other way it works is not just direct experience, but that when someone has a good 'experience', likeability, presence, etc., we want to like their work or what they produce too. At the high end, 'good' photos, it's partly subjective; people remember the experience and project that onto the final product. Same with a bad experience, it creates a negative bias that is projected onto the final product.

Aug 17, 2012 at 06:21 PM

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p.8 #11 · To the higher end shooters...

So if you are attractive, have a great personality, everyone likes you, and the "experience" that you provide is outstanding, then your photography can take a back seat because your likeability and experience will overshadow any lack of technical expertise ?

Personally, I can say yes to that, because I have a shooter, hispanic, spanish speaking middle age guy, and my clients always love him. They rave about him. But his work is mediocre to bad.

In MY eyes, it's crap. But I never get any complaints about him or the photos.

So I guess being Mr. or Ms. Socialite, everyone loves me is more important
than being an excellent photographer.

Edited on Aug 17, 2012 at 06:38 PM · View previous versions

Aug 17, 2012 at 06:35 PM

SloPhoto
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p.8 #12 · To the higher end shooters...

Aug 17, 2012 at 06:38 PM

marti.g3
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p.8 #13 · To the higher end shooters...

SloPhoto wrote:
marti.g3 wrote:
So if you are attractive, have a great personality, everyone likes you, and the "experience" that you provide is outstanding, then your photography can take a back seat because your likeability and experience will overshadow any lack of technical expertise ?

Is that shocking to you?

Sure is. To ME. I want to get my money's worth. Not have some personable clown
creating crap.

Aug 17, 2012 at 06:39 PM

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p.8 #14 · To the higher end shooters...

Aug 17, 2012 at 06:41 PM

Inku Yo
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p.8 #15 · To the higher end shooters...

Aug 17, 2012 at 06:46 PM

TheGE
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p.8 #16 · To the higher end shooters...

marti.g3 wrote:
So if you are attractive, have a great personality, everyone likes you, and the "experience" that you provide is outstanding, then your photography can take a back seat because your likeability and experience will overshadow any lack of technical expertise ?

Personally, I can say yes to that, because I have a shooter, hispanic, spanish speaking middle age guy, and my clients always love him. They rave about him. But his work is mediocre to bad.

In MY eyes, it's crap. But I never get any complaints about him or the photos.

So I guess being Mr. or Ms. Socialite, everyone loves me is more important
than being an excellent photographer.

Perhaps in your eyes his work is mediocre, if only because your eyes are schooled. To the public, his work appears fine.

And the work has to be good quality. Don't get me wrong about that.

But yes, "likability" smooths over a lot (not "personality"). If people don't like you, they won't forgive you when there's a hiccup.

Attractiveness has to do with making a great first impression and keeping it. And a great first impression sets the tone for everything that follows.

But "Mr. or Ms. Socialite, everyone loves me is more important than being an excellent photographer" is... what? A vent? Sarcasm? OK, you're permitted. But this is the way the world works and you can choose to either complain about it or work with it, true? Complaining isn't what changes things so working with it is the productive thing to do.

Aug 17, 2012 at 06:52 PM

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p.8 #17 · To the higher end shooters...

TheGE wrote:
marti.g3 wrote:
So if you are attractive, have a great personality, everyone likes you, and the "experience" that you provide is outstanding, then your photography can take a back seat because your likeability and experience will overshadow any lack of technical expertise ?

Personally, I can say yes to that, because I have a shooter, hispanic, spanish speaking middle age guy, and my clients always love him. They rave about him. But his work is mediocre to bad.

In MY eyes, it's crap. But I never get any complaints about him or the photos.

So I guess being Mr. or Ms. Socialite, everyone loves me is more important
than being an excellent photographer.

Perhaps in your eyes his work is mediocre, if only because your eyes are schooled. To the public, his work appears fine.

And the work has to be good quality. Don't get me wrong about that.

But yes, "likability" smooths over a lot (not "personality"). If people don't like you, they won't forgive you when there's a hiccup.

Attractiveness has to do with making a great first impression and keeping it. And a great first impression sets the tone for everything that follows.

But "Mr. or Ms. Socialite, everyone loves me is more important than being an excellent photographer" is... what? A vent? Sarcasm? OK, you're permitted. But this is the way the world works and you can choose to either complain about it or work with it, true? Complaining isn't what changes things so working with it is the productive thing to do.

David Jay had a great series of seminars selling the same thing. Unfortunately, in this day and age, this type of thinking has permeated the industry. Fool the public. They don't know any better. That only lasts so long.

Edited on Aug 17, 2012 at 07:14 PM · View previous versions

Aug 17, 2012 at 07:12 PM

TRReichman
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p.8 #18 · To the higher end shooters...

Aug 17, 2012 at 07:12 PM

marti.g3
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p.8 #19 · To the higher end shooters...

TRReichman wrote:
marti.g3 wrote:
So if you are attractive, have a great personality, everyone likes you, and the "experience" that you provide is outstanding, then your photography can take a back seat because your likeability and experience will overshadow any lack of technical expertise ?

Personally, I can say yes to that, because I have a shooter, hispanic, spanish speaking middle age guy, and my clients always love him. They rave about him. But his work is mediocre to bad.

In MY eyes, it's crap. But I never get any complaints about him or the photos.

So I guess being Mr. or Ms. Socialite, everyone loves me is more important
than being an excellent photographer.

Everyone is acting like this is a problem. Photographers talk about educating clients all the time. Guess what - this is the market educating photographers on what they actually care about. Good photography should be a given, this other stuff actually matters to people and we ought to be respectful of that.

- trr

I agree, but some are saying it doesn't have to be. That giving a great experience can overshadow poor photography. How many seminars are out there that sell this sort of thinking ? "throw thousands of images at your clients, they'll love you and will be too busy to know any difference"........but as long as you gave them that great experience, then all will be well.............and so goes the continuing down turn of the industry. You don't have to be an excellent, proficient photographer, just someone with a great personality, attractive that your clients will love and be too embarrassed to complain to.

Aug 17, 2012 at 07:17 PM

TRReichman
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p.8 #20 · To the higher end shooters...

I don't disagree with you, but I definitely think that photographers don't care enough about the rest of the story that clients are looking for in a vendor.

- trr

Aug 17, 2012 at 07:29 PM

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