whitewash wrote:
I'm struggling here to understand how Canon (a for-profit corporation) employing private citizens (for a market wage) to produce cameras (from designs that are privately developed, privately owned intellectual property) ... and selling those cameras to (commercial) resellers in the US at rates determined by the market for said cameras and the foreign exchange market (a vast, highly competitive, free-market investment system) ... and shipping them using, say, FedEx or UPS (for-profit corporations) ... and then those resellers turning around and selling the same cameras to cineski for use in his private business at rates determined by the market for said cameras... is a good example of "a big socialist system." Pray tell, what is your definition of socialism?
More on topic, I've discovered that I am wildly talented... at pretty much anything I study obsessively and work my butt off at for a really long period of time, like a decade or so. I know a lot of other folks who are the same way. It's amazing how that happens. Of course, the things that reward me early on with pretty good results are a lot easier to get obsessive about. ...Show more →
So basically to achieve something, you have to work and study very hard "for a really long period of time", otherwise you won't be successful ?
marti.g3 wrote:
So basically to achieve something, you have to work and study very hard "for a really long period of time", otherwise you won't be successful ?
My statement was tongue in cheek, but based on your other posts in this thread, I think you'd agree that "talent" doesn't necessarily equate with "achievement" or "success." Talent is just potential, until it's developed. It's also a handy excuse for not working harder at something -- whether one has it or doesn't. The onlooker who says, "You're really talented!" isn't that different from the one who says, "Your camera takes really nice pictures!" Both negate the effort that goes into the work. And I think you had that effort in mind when you started this thread hailing those folks who have pushed themselves into the upper tier of the business. I could be wrong; I also thought you were about 26.
Talent is never enough. There's a book by that title. The premise is plain enough: lots of people have talent. It's common. Success isn't.
There's also a quote by Stella Adler, the famous acting coach, where she said something along the lines of how talent doesn't help when things don't go smooth. That's when training kicks in: knowing what to do, not just relying on talent.
There's a lot to be said for honed skills, knowledge and experience.
Speaking of which, it's not just putting in time or hard work. I was once told how there are those who have twenty years of experience, but then some of those are actually one year of experience repeated twenty times.
TheGE wrote:
I was once told how there are those who have twenty years of experience, but then some of those are actually one year of experience repeated twenty times.
I remember when I started skiing in 8th grade. There was a local mountain (that also had night skiing until 10pm) about 20 minutes from my house. My parents bought me a season pass. I had a group of friends that all had season passes. One kid's parent would drop us off after school or on weekends and another kid's parents would pick us up.
I joined the ski team in 10th grade and by the time I was a senior, I was captain and qualified for state finals. I remember hearing other kids say things like, "I've been skiing since I was 5..." but when I actually saw them on the hill, they weren't very good. I was much better than them because in a span of 4 years, I probably went skiing about 375+ days. I'd be surprised if those other kids skied that much in their entire life.
The difference, "talent" aside, was probably that every time that kid went on his annual 5 day ski vacation (ever since he was 5), he probably had to spend some of that time early on relearning what he learned the year before. Spread that out over 10 or 12 years. Whereas I, for 4 years and almost every day of the winter, skied the hell out of a mountain.
I still see that sort of thing in photography. How many of us have heard, "I've been in business for 30 years!!!" Yeah, well it looks like your style and portfolio haven't changed since you started out. Antiquated techniques and antiquated business models. People who are in the service industry who neither have the personality nor temperament to be serving anyone.
Inku Yo wrote:
I remember when I started skiing in 8th grade. There was a local mountain (that also had night skiing until 10pm) about 20 minutes from my house. My parents bought me a season pass. I had a group of friends that all had season passes. One kid's parent would drop us off after school or on weekends and another kid's parents would pick us up.
I joined the ski team in 10th grade and by the time I was a senior, I was captain and qualified for state finals. I remember hearing other kids say things like, "I've been skiing since I was 5..." but when I actually saw them on the hill, they weren't very good. I was much better than them because in a span of 4 years, I probably went skiing about 375+ days. I'd be surprised if those other kids skied that much in their entire life.
The difference, "talent" aside, was probably that every time that kid went on his annual 5 day ski vacation (ever since he was 5), he probably had to spend some of that time early on relearning what he learned the year before. Spread that out over 10 or 12 years. Whereas I, for 4 years and almost every day of the winter, skied the hell out of a mountain.
I still see that sort of thing in photography. How many of us have heard, "I've been in business for 30 years!!!" Yeah, well it looks like your style and portfolio haven't changed since you started out. Antiquated techniques and antiquated business models. People who are in the service industry who neither have the personality nor temperament to be serving anyone....Show more →
There is a big 'talent' factor or 'it' in wedding photography, as in most cases where you are photographing people in an intimate environment. "It" isn't so much about photography and it doesn't really help you create better pictures, but it helps you create a better experience for your client. Friendliness, approachability, 'fitting in', confidence, magnetism, presence, social intuition, personality, etc. You can fake these things, and you can learn them to some extent, but others can sniff that out too. People have an innate sense or can tell the difference between someone who is enjoying the day, and someone who just wants to give the image that they are enjoying the day. They can sense the difference between someone who honestly cares about them, their special day, their family and the others around them who they chose to share their special day with, and someone who is just playing along for the sake of business or making money.
I see this in my own work, and when observing other photographers. By watching someone work for an hour or so, I can pretty much tell if this person is going to be successful (in my world) or not. They either have 'it' or they don't. Skill doesn't matter a whole lot, it will improve with use and opportunity, or languish due to lack of use / lack of opportunity.
Now you can have 'it' and not know you do, you can be mis-focussed on things that don't really matter or you can be so certain in your head that you don't have 'it' that you never discover that you had 'it' all along. Or you can lack 'it' but do your best to make up for that in other ways, but you will never be top-tier if that is the case.
I almost hate to continue this (as well as insult you, but alas I must and I will be polite). You must go do a lot more research on what socialism is, sir. As of now, you haven't a clue.
tobicus wrote:
I sure hope you made those cameras you use for your wedding photography, because otherwise it probably took a big socialist system of trade and currency agreements and regulations to ship your Canons over from Japan.
I've kinda found this to be true with myself. Because as of now, I had absolutely no idea how much I sucked when I started photography. Even now, when I shoot something, I kinda dig it for a week and then I think it sucks. I think I've created 5-6 images that I think are good. So even though in the present moment I think I've got some chops, I know in a few years I'm going to look back and think how much I sucked. Well, go back a second. That won't make me successful. That'll make me a better photographer. But I think to a certain extent this can be said for most skills. Even business.
marti.g3 wrote:
So basically to achieve something, you have to work and study very hard "for a really long period of time", otherwise you won't be successful ?
Inku Yo wrote:
I still see that sort of thing in photography. How many of us have heard, "I've been in business for 30 years!!!" Yeah, well it looks like your style and portfolio haven't changed since you started out. Antiquated techniques and antiquated business models. People who are in the service industry who neither have the personality nor temperament to be serving anyone.
I understand what you mean. Some of those guys look like they're stuck in 1977 in their style, the way their studios look and in the way they market. Though a lot of their technique is better than many of today's shooters. Newer photographers may think they're hot stuff but then in a few years, after they've developed some more, they'll look back at their work and think, "ugh." But we all go through that - unless we don't grow.
But when it comes to not having the personality or temperament, I see that a lot in the newer crowd so it's not just about old timers who've gotten tired or fed up with the downside. When I see posts where newer photographers brag about "teaching the bride a lesson" out of spite, I know that's someone being immature, not professional. When I read how someone can't handle a bride asking simple questions without taking it as red flags, I know that's someone who doesn't know how to handle objections and doesn't really understand the buying process prospects go through. When I read some of the problems photographers have with upset clients, it's usually a photographer who doesn't know how to perform great customer service or run a business well.
Only natural to expect that most wouldn't have an education in this; even the best businesses need to train their employees on these matters, right? It doesn't come naturally to most. There isn't any training like that for newer photographers. Like anything else, it takes a learning curve. But really, how many actually roll up their sleeves and figure this part out way early in their career and become proficient at it? Unless they come from having done so in their previous line of work, it's not likely.
TheGE wrote:
I understand what you mean. Some of those guys look like they're stuck in 1977 in their style, the way their studios look and in the way they market. Though a lot of their technique is better than many of today's shooters. Newer photographers may think they're hot stuff but then in a few years, after they've developed some more, they'll look back at their work and think, "ugh." But we all go through that - unless we don't grow.
But when it comes to not having the personality or temperament, I see that a lot in the newer crowd so it's not just about old timers who've gotten tired or fed up with the downside. When I see posts where newer photographers brag about "teaching the bride a lesson" out of spite, I know that's someone being immature, not professional. When I read how someone can't handle a bride asking simple questions without taking it as red flags, I know that's someone who doesn't know how to handle objections and doesn't really understand the buying process prospects go through. When I read some of the problems photographers have with upset clients, it's usually a photographer who doesn't know how to perform great customer service or run a business well.
Only natural to expect that most wouldn't have an education in this; even the best businesses need to train their employees on these matters, right? It doesn't come naturally to most. There isn't any training like that for newer photographers. Like anything else, it takes a learning curve. But really, how many actually roll up their sleeves and figure this part out way early in their career and become proficient at it? Unless they come from having done so in their previous line of work, it's not likely....Show more →
This business is all about running business, not taking photographs (even though that's our product). You can have a perfectly successful business with decently crappy photos. Some photographers are high end photogs. They will charge $6k per wedding because they only do like 4 weddings per year. Their photos can be anywhere between extremely awesome to absolute crap. Take that into account and then take some newer photogs like me offering weddings at less than $1k because I don't mind working more. I have the same range of anywhere between extremely awesome to absolute crap (more the latter lol). A customer takes the same risk no matter what price range the photographer is at. The only reason why customers buy things is because we sell it to them. I always try to over-deliver and my only concern is "building" business by having more and more referrals. If a customer doesn't refer you, it means that they didn't like your work/value. Every customer ideally should offer 5 referrals which starts up the multiplier effect. This is simple small business economics. You can vet a bum off the street to photograph and get the same results.
whtrbt7 wrote:
Some photographers are high end photogs. They will charge $6k per wedding because they only do like 4 weddings per year. Their photos can be anywhere between extremely awesome to absolute crap. Take that into account and then take some newer photogs like me offering weddings at less than $1k because I don't mind working more.
There's lots of folks out there who charge $6k and up and shoot 40+ weddings too... Just a thought.
whtrbt7 wrote:
This business is all about running business, not taking photographs (even though that's our product). You can have a perfectly successful business with decently crappy photos. Some photographers are high end photogs. They will charge $6k per wedding because they only do like 4 weddings per year. Their photos can be anywhere between extremely awesome to absolute crap. Take that into account and then take some newer photogs like me offering weddings at less than $1k because I don't mind working more. I have the same range of anywhere between extremely awesome to absolute crap (more the latter lol). A customer takes the same risk no matter what price range the photographer is at. The only reason why customers buy things is because we sell it to them. I always try to over-deliver and my only concern is "building" business by having more and more referrals. If a customer doesn't refer you, it means that they didn't like your work/value. Every customer ideally should offer 5 referrals which starts up the multiplier effect. This is simple small business economics. You can vet a bum off the street to photograph and get the same results. ...Show more →
whtrbt7 wrote:
This business is all about running business, not taking photographs (even though that's our product). You can have a perfectly successful business with decently crappy photos. Some photographers are high end photogs. They will charge $6k per wedding because they only do like 4 weddings per year. Their photos can be anywhere between extremely awesome to absolute crap. Take that into account and then take some newer photogs like me offering weddings at less than $1k because I don't mind working more. I have the same range of anywhere between extremely awesome to absolute crap (more the latter lol). A customer takes the same risk no matter what price range the photographer is at. The only reason why customers buy things is because we sell it to them. I always try to over-deliver and my only concern is "building" business by having more and more referrals. If a customer doesn't refer you, it means that they didn't like your work/value. Every customer ideally should offer 5 referrals which starts up the multiplier effect. This is simple small business economics. You can vet a bum off the street to photograph and get the same results. ...Show more →
Why does it have to be one or the other? Why is it all business or all photography? A bum?
T_T
I'm having a weird day.
I also don't mean any disrespect to those of you that do land $6k weddings and do like 40 of them per year. I've just had bad experiences with some of these yahoos myself and that's the other reason I offer a lower price range.
