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Archive 2012 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100

  
 
pdmphoto
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p.2 #1 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


Lloyd chambers had this to say about the 20mpix from the Sony RX100 (this is from his free online area so don't jump all over me about it):

"...realizing 20 megapixels of details from the Sony RX100 is not realistic; most of the time there appear to be limitations that limit it to something closer to 12 megapixels, based on the variety of field shots I took."

That's about what I see too when I compare its output to my 20MP Samsung NX200, even with the kit lens on it. A good fixed focal length lens takes the NX200 even a step further. Sony really needs to put a higher quality lens in the camera. One that starts at 24mm, and is faster at the long end, would be ideal.



Aug 20, 2012 at 11:49 PM
millsart
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p.2 #2 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


1) Your missing the forest for the trees in regards to his review, he overall rather loved it, as seemingly most RX100 users do. Its hardly the most amazing camera in any one given area, and in fact in any given area there is something that is for all intensive purposes better, but few if any can do quite so much in such a small package

Which brings me to point 2), a faster and wider lens would be great, as would one thats even more well corrected but then its not a pocket camera, so what would be the point ? Additionally the cost would end up being even higher which would further confuse what the point is

Only real thing the RX100 has going for it is its pocket sized. If I wanted to carry something bigger, I'm going to carry a NEX or m4/3 offering. All things being equal as far as size goes I'll usually go with the biggest sensor possible.

As much as I liked some things about the Nikon V1, what really killed it for me was that I had this camera that was about as large and heavy as my m4/3 gear, and at the time cost as much as my m4/3 gear as well, but it had smaller sensor.

If Sony goes hey heres a $900 fixed lens camera thats too big to fit into your pocket and that has a 24-100ish fast lens but only a 1" sensor who's really going to want that ? Get a EM-5 etc for that type of money.

RX100 as it stands packs what I think was the fastest/widest lens they could produce and at a price thats not too large of jump over other compacts to still be attractive to mainstream consumers.


If you know of something thats equally small and that takes better images though please let me know because I've owned tons of compacts and CSC's searching for that grail and the RX100 is the closest by a long shot

pdmphoto wrote:
Lloyd chambers had this to say about the 20mpix from the Sony RX100 (this is from his free online area so don't jump all over me about it):

"...realizing 20 megapixels of details from the Sony RX100 is not realistic; most of the time there appear to be limitations that limit it to something closer to 12 megapixels, based on the variety of field shots I took."

That's about what I see too when I compare its output to my 20MP Samsung NX200, even with the kit lens on it. A good fixed focal length lens takes the NX200 even a step
...Show more



Aug 21, 2012 at 12:26 AM
ISO1600
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p.2 #3 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


I'm really surprised of the GX-1 vs OM-D opinion a lot of you guys seem to have!

I had the GF-1 about a year ago, and really enjoyed it a lot, except for the fact that the UI was decidedly PnS. Without the EVF (which i've heard a mixed bag on), it HAS to be used in "hold 3 feet from your face" PnS fashion.... which i never liked.
Couple that with super slow AF, ugh.

Now i've got the OM-D, and i REALLY REALLY like it. I'm wondering though, if the GX1+EVF would work better for me.



Sep 06, 2012 at 08:54 AM
John Wolf
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p.2 #4 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


Gee, the GF1 AF was considered excellent, and the GX1 AF is said to be best in class. I'm amazed at how mine focuses on the street. Maybe you're comparing to a DSLR?

I've never liked the mini-DSLR form factor, and much prefer the boxy style of the GF1/GX1. I never remove the viewfinder. It's a little weak in bright light, but otherwise very enough.

John




ISO1600 wrote:
I'm really surprised of the GX-1 vs OM-D opinion a lot of you guys seem to have!

I had the GF-1 about a year ago, and really enjoyed it a lot, except for the fact that the UI was decidedly PnS. Without the EVF (which i've heard a mixed bag on), it HAS to be used in "hold 3 feet from your face" PnS fashion.... which i never liked.
Couple that with super slow AF, ugh.

Now i've got the OM-D, and i REALLY REALLY like it. I'm wondering though, if the GX1+EVF would work better for me.




Sep 06, 2012 at 01:29 PM
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p.2 #5 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


GX1... It might be okay if it had an EVF. It doesn't so it's completely out of the question for me.

IMHO, (one of) the only things good about mirrorless are the EVFs. And on the GX1 they didn't put one? So IMO, there's almost nothing good about it. But then, I'm someone who thinks there should have never been an LCD panel on any still camera ever, for any reason!


Sure, sure, I know:

http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/panasonic/dmc_gx1-assets/camera-with-evf.jpg (see below for the same)

But WTH is that? UG! ACK! Puke!

Just my 2˘





Ugly Betty?



Edited on Sep 06, 2012 at 09:06 PM · View previous versions



Sep 06, 2012 at 01:40 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.2 #6 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


Bif, that image is not showing

I disagree with you re. the EVF.

The external EVF on the GX-1 is better, IMHO, than a built-in one, for the following reasons:

IQ-wise, better than the NEX-7's, and as good as the OM-D's (side-by-side comparisons)

It locks on (can't be pulled off when you pull it out of a bag)

It tilts (something that is almost as useful as a fold-out screen for interiors, tripod work, etc, AND way better in bright sunlight than any screen). Of course, you can't frame overhead shots with it!

The diopter adjustment can't be bumped either; it is shrouded by the EVF itself, yet is big enough for normal fingers to operate

When you do choose to remove it, the camera plus the 20/1.7 is TINY; so you have the best of both worlds; see HERE.

I have railed against external EVFs in the past; I am changing my position here.



Sep 06, 2012 at 06:10 PM
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p.2 #7 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


Of course. Not everyone is going to have the same opinion as I do. That's a given.

For me my opinion is true and correct and for you, yours is. It's all good. Well, except for the GX1 design - which IMHO isn't. But that's Plastisonic for ya, I don't think I've ever seen any equipment from any area of tech gadgetry that was made by Panasonic which wasn't a failure in the design department. And I'm pretty sure the exceptions (which I can count on one hand and which happen to include the G1/G2/GH1/GH2) were/are total accidents. It's like the million monkeys all banging away on typewriters: sooner or later a line from Shakespeare will appear - although in the G1/GH1 case there were a few words missing (like the warped lens behind the EVF). But the GX1 has it all spelled wrong and is mostly gibberish.

I'm sure the GX1 appeals to a niche market - like those not really serious about photography and just wanting to pull it out of their purse hold the thing in one hand at arm's length and click and pray before jamming it back in the handbag. I guess it might also appeal to people who are always on a tripod indoors but can't afford a real camera too although I think there are too many others which win over it in that area for that style? None of those styles happen to appeal to me however, thus I have the opinion I do.


BTW, I've /wanted/ to rail against OVFs on digital cameras since their inception so it's nice to see an OVF advocate coming around to seeing things differently!



Sep 06, 2012 at 08:37 PM
John Wolf
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p.2 #8 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


I keep thinking I'd like to replace my GX1, especially with something with a larger sensor, but every time I review the other options, I don't find anything that strikes a better balance between size, image quality, lens options, AF performance, and price.

The only thing I wish for is a built-in viewfinder, and would gladly accept a larger form factor for that feature.

John



Sep 07, 2012 at 08:09 AM
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p.2 #9 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


Isn't the GH2 slightly better IQ than the GX1? It has a built-in EVF. Bigger sensor too - although very slight.

Also the D700 can be found for about $900 to $1100 and that's very close to the price of a GX1+EVF or almost exactly the same as GX1+EVF+Kit Lens.

The Shutter count will be high on the D700 for that $900 but the remainder will about the same as the GX1 has from new.






Sep 07, 2012 at 08:21 AM
Jman13
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p.2 #10 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


No, the GH2 does not have slightly better image quality than the GX1...actually just the reverse. They are extremely similar (essentially identical) at lower ISO, but the GX1 has better high ISO noise control (it's not a big difference, but it's there), and it doesn't shift colors at really high ISO like the GH2 does.

I really like the GX1, but I think the OM-D is the better camera in most ways except for AF, where the GX1 is the best single shot AF of any camera I've ever used. Of course, all the leads here (both for the OM-D and the GX1) are slim, except in the case of dynamic range, where the OM-D is a huge step up.

And I disagree with you, Bif about the GX1 design. I really think it's the best of the small form factor m4/3 cameras with regards to design. The grip, while small, is very comfortable, and a huge step up from the GF1 and even the E-P3. The controls are well placed and logical, and the menu design is pretty good. Almost all functions can be quickly accessed, and the touch screen is laid out very well. I also think it's funny you keep putting in the insulting spelling and calling Panasonic "Plastisonic" considering the GX1 is a metal bodied camera that is extremely solid.

If you want a built in EVF, it's obviously not for you, but I like being able to attach or detach the EVF when needed. I shoot it without the EVF about 65% of the time, since if I'm doing long shoots, I usually have my OM-D. But I love being able to put the GX1 with 12/2 and 45/1.8 in a tiny belt bag and have a very high quality imaging machine with essentially zero bulk.

But, as I said....I'd definitely take the OM-D over it if I had to get rid of one.



Sep 07, 2012 at 08:42 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.2 #11 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


Bif,

I have owned both (GX-1 and GH-2); the GX-1 has the edge, IQ-wise, in my view, but it's a small DLSR in form factor, and simply cannot pack small like the GX-1.

And I have no idea why you brought the D700 into the discussion; I know how good they are (owned three of them, not to mention all the Nikon "pro." bodies) but they are in a different arena, and add a lens and we are talking three times the weight and size—please re-read my first post. If I had wanted that size/form, I would have stuck to the A850; it has even better IQ than the D700.

If I may ask, what are your larger points?

As for opinions, everyone has one; the key question is what makes yours interesting or relevant to the discussion at hand? In your last but one post, you stake a claim to be able to have an opinion (a given, I would have thought, as this is a forum for opinions), but as far as I can tell from re-reading your posts, you do not seem to adduce any evidence to support them.

A question for you: what is a real camera, in your terms?

I do like your avatar, though.



Sep 07, 2012 at 08:53 AM
Kit Laughlin
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p.2 #12 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


A technical question for you, Jman: can the in-camera flash be used to trigger studio strobes; I could not get this to work today with an Elinchrom unit plus soft box.

My settings: the on-camera flash bulled back and locked in to the pointing upright position; forced flash; +2EV set in flash adjustment (on the assumption that in the dark studio this would produce the strongest flash; Manual, and manually adjusted ISO. The problem was that, although the strobe fired, and the recycling 'beep' sounded, I could not get that light onto the sensor. Probably I am missing something truly basic; but (unlike the GXR) I just could not get the sensor to respond to what I thought I was sending its way!

Any clues?



Sep 07, 2012 at 09:03 AM
Jman13
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p.2 #13 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


I'd imagine it would depend on your optical slave for the strobes.

I use wireless RF triggers to trigger my off camera lights (not studio strobes, but a bunch of manual flashguns). The trigger just sits in the hotshoe, so I don't have to worry about line of sight. So, sorry I can't answer your question!



Sep 07, 2012 at 09:27 AM
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p.2 #14 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


Kit Laughlin wrote:
Bif,

I have owned both (GX-1 and GH-2); the GX-1 has the edge, IQ-wise, in my view, but it's a small DLSR in form factor, and simply cannot pack small like the GX-1.

And I have no idea why you brought the D700 into the discussion; I know how good they are (owned three of them, not to mention all the Nikon "pro." bodies) but they are in a different arena, and add a lens and we are talking three times the weight and size—please re-read my first post. If I had wanted that size/form, I would have stuck to the
...Show more


Hehehe... Me too.

What is a real camera? I guess that's different for everyone but in general terms:

A "real" camera is:

One that won't fall apart if dropped; good to exceptional build quality,
One that weighs enough and is large enough to handle well with both long and short lenses,
One which is made by a respectable Camera manufacturer (just my own personal stipulation),
One which offers a full array of system components: Bellows, 1.4 and 2x TCs, professional flash guns, portrait grip, etc.
One which offers a full set of well made exceptional IQ lenses from 10 or 12mm to 500 or 600mm (equiv),
One which offers actual warrantee support (that excludes Plastisonic!)
One which produces exceptional images (pretty much this is limited to FF models IMO),
One that's equipped with professional grade features and specs (from AF and Continuous drive speed to buffer size and battery life, etc.),
And so on and so forth.

I do offer evidence to support my opinions but people read only what they want to read and have difficulties hearing anything other than that. It's pretty common. Even I do it. For example I'll probably never except that anyone can tell a quality difference between the external EVF and the GH2 built-in one, nor that using an external EVF is anything other than clumsy (in their current form). So I'm just as guilty as the next guy in that regard.






Sep 07, 2012 at 09:50 AM
joezasada
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p.2 #15 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


I have been shooting with the GX1 for a while now, extremely happy with it. About the only thing I can't do with it - fast moving sports; the mirror blackout time is a bit long. As well, if it had the focus peaking feature of the sony then it would be absolutely perfect...


Sep 07, 2012 at 04:26 PM
Jman13
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p.2 #16 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


Wow...mirror blackout on the GX1? You must have the super special version!

Sorry...had to.



Sep 07, 2012 at 05:17 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.2 #17 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


So, Bif; thanks for that excellent list; your position is perfectly clear now.

I have to ask—given my original post and my background of having shot Canon, Nikon and Sony pro gear (and Panasonic and Sony pro video, too) for 30+ years, why are you commenting here? This thread is explicitly not about these kind of cameras and I know them as well as you do, probably.

This thread is about a different approach to making images and video and, moreover and this is the important part, which can be carried aboard a flight somewhere. Currently, cabin baggage limits here are 7Kg. My entire stills and video kit fits easily within that limit, with all the rest one needs on board. This was the objective. I have been carrying two Pelican hard cases around the world for years, and I don't want to do that any more.

So, my goal was to find gear that is good enough for what I am ding presently. What I shoot ends up in brochures and on the net, mostly. And the video I shoot ends up on DVD (and down-rezzed, down-sampled 720p HD video looks fantastic on standard definition DVD). And I don't shoot sports.

Looking at your list, I feel the Panasonic (it feels like it's made all out of metal and rubber to me; it's well made, in my view) ticks the following boxes from your list:

It won't fall apart (and I have to say in 30 years of shooting professionally I have never dropped a camera, but it could happen, of course)

I don't want the weight that you claim as an advantage; with the RRS bracket, the GX-1 fits my hands perfectly. And as my longest lens is the tiny Sony 45, no need to have the kind of grips the pro bodies have, so—for me—that aspect is moot.

Having used Panasonic pro vide gear since they started making it, I deem them a respectable company, and I have had no problems getting warranty claims met.

I have no need these days of the "full range of system components"; and I have strobes in the studio. My macro work is met by studio flash and the excellent 45/2.8 macro.

My on-the-road kit is now the 7-14, wrapped and stowed with my checked in luggage; the three main lenses (12/2, 20/1.7, and 45/1.8) come on board with me.

Your next point you will need to explain; I have had zero problems with Panasonic warranty-wise. And the GX-1 is better made that any of the G-series bodies, in my estimation. We'll have to wait and see on this point, I guess.

I can make decent images with this gear; images that my clients like and are happy to pay for. Like many here, I have been chasing the grail of "exceptional images" ever since the dawning of the digital era—and my photography has been improving (I am seeing better). So, rather than gear specs, I pay attention to light, and get it right in the camera. The GX-1 exceeds my capacities in this regard: by this, I mean that the limitations of the GX-1 are not limiting my image-making.

And on the last point, the GX-1 does all I need; this was the point of the original post. And this is the first time since the beginning of digital this has been the case. The battery life is excellent for my work; the focus tracking works very well for what I shoot (no sport!); I have never come close to filling the buffer. A big day for me is 75 images.

The last point I would like to make is that while I agree any external EVF looks like an add-on (it is, after all), it works a treat and it can be removed for walk-around duty, if you want. How a camera looks is less important than what functions it can perform, although aesthetics do play a part in one's interaction with the device I agree.

And this is just the current state of play; that Fuji X-E1 is a worry. Anyhow...



Sep 07, 2012 at 06:02 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.2 #18 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


@ Jman13: Jordan, can you figure any way to use the on-camera flash to trigger strobes—it should be simple, but I can't get it to work. It could be that the flash output is just too low to trigger the strobes (I needed 1/4 power from the GXR to do this). I will have to get an on-camera trigger but I would rather not...


Sep 07, 2012 at 10:28 PM
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p.2 #19 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


It seems like you have found heaven and are glimpsing heaven++. That's always a nice feeling!

I'm still relatively dissatisfied with the current state of the market. Things are either too expensive or are too flimsy and under-spec'd for me. Until such time as it doesn't, the GH2 seems like a good compromise at $200 to $300 less than the GX1+EVF.

I doubt anything is going to change anytime soon either so short of winning the lottery or marrying Bill Gate's twin sister I'll probably be having this opinion for some time to come.

It's not a huge deal to me tho... I mean it seems only obvious in my world that cameras and photography equipment are mostly in the "luxury item" category. So it's all about as important as stereo gear, computer specs, or other consumeristic illusory distractions. Fun to tinker with and converse over but not of any great import.



Sep 07, 2012 at 11:03 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.2 #20 · No love for the Panasonic GX1? And some thoughts vs. RX100


Marrying Bill Gates' twin sister: there's an image to conjure with! And I do agree that if cost weighs into the factors, then the GH2 is a very competent and inexpensive bit of gear (I owned the first and second iteration).

For the rest—got it; over and out.



Sep 07, 2012 at 11:35 PM
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