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Archive 2012 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)
  
 
uz2work
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p.4 #1 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


dhlewis wrote:
Here is another photographers opinion on this subject. Please read carefully as to what he states his evaluation criteria is :

http://iwishicouldfly.com/iwishicouldfly/journal/pdfs/Canon%207D%20vs%201D%20Mark%20III.pdf

from my viewpoint the method he chose to use makes sense based on his criteria, YMMV

Regardless of whether there are some who have notions chiseled into their brains and who don't want to have those notions confused with reality, I've seen many tests similar to the ones done by Alan (who has posted on this board), and every controlled and credibly done test comparing those two cameras has shown the same results as do Alan's test. As has been said several times in this thread, the 1D Mark III was/is an excellent camera. It has a lot going for it, and it has some advantages over the 7D, but shooting in focal length-limited situations is not one of them.

Les
Aug 16, 2012 at 04:48 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.4 #2 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


uz2work wrote:
I see people saying the same thing, too, but I think that saying it that way may be overstating reality.

I post process my 7D images in the exact same way that I post process my 1D Mark IV images, and, while there may have been some minor evolutionary changes, it is basically the same post processing that I did with earlier generations of cameras. I admit that post processing in not one of my strengths, and it may well be that more careful post processing would make my images look better, but, even if "careful post processing" is required...Show more →

I pretty much use the same PP for 7D as I do my other cameras. The only difference is I might use a tad more luminance NR in LR4 say 12 vs 10 at ISO 400 etc, but there's no special techniques. I might need a bit more NR in heavy crops but it's a case-by-case proposition. Basically if you get the exposure right before you shoot the IQ will be fine. The main thing is to keep shutter speeds up when hand holding as it has 3x the pixel density of the 1D III.
Aug 16, 2012 at 05:47 PM
uz2work
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p.4 #3 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Pixel Perfect wrote:
The main thing is to keep shutter speeds up when hand holding as it has 3x the pixel density of the 1D III.

Even though it is clear that there are some here who refuse to accept the concept, it was when I embraced the notion that, with a high pixel density 1.6 crop sensor, keeping shutter speeds up is a key to getting consistently good results and realizing the potential of the camera, that I started to get those consistently good results. With slower shutter speeds, you can still get lucky and get a great shot, but higher shutter speeds are what is going to give you those good results consistently.

It is not a question of whether there is camera shake and/or subject movement. There is always at least minimal camera shake and it is extremely rare for there to be no subject movement at all. And any camera shake and/or subject movement is going to degrade image quality. Thus, the real questions how much is that camera shake and subject movement going to degrade image quality and at what point does that degraded image quality have a noticeable effect on the image? And simple math tells us that, with high pixel density 1.6 crop camera, the effects are going to be greater, and they are going to affect image quality much sooner than they would with a lower pixel density camera.

As I continue to follow and photograph the eagle fledgling on a daily basis, each day I come home impressed with the consistent image quality that I get from the 7D, and, each day, I can point to examples of shots that I probably would not have gotten with my 1D Mark IV (or other lower pixel density camera) and that I probably would not have gotten had I not kept my shutter speeds up. The 2 shots below from the same burst were severe crops that used less than 25% of the original frame. That means that, after cropping, I was essentially using a camera with a crop factor greater than 6.4, which further dramatically increases necessary shutter speeds compared to what would have been needed had I not been cropping.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_4086eagle-nest-8-17-121.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_4084eagle-nest-8-17-121.jpg

The two shots below were from another burst, and they were cropped to about 1/3 of the original frame.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_4141eagle-nest-8-18-121.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_4143eagle-nest-8-18-121.jpg

And here are two more from a different burst where the crops are also down to about 1/3 of the original frame.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_4130eagle-nest-8-18-121.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_4131eagle-nest-8-18-121.jpg

While I'm not a big fan of tight/portrait types of shots and I don't seek them out, I'll still take them when the opportunity presents itself. Even though the subjects in these kinds of shots may seem to be relatively static, when the distance between the camera and the subject gets much shorter, any even minimal camera shake or even very minor subject movement, because of the close proximity between the subject and the camera, is magnified further. Thus, even this type of shot, especially with a 7D, benefits from higher shutter speeds. Here are two examples.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3990eagle-nest-8-14-121.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3783eagle-nest-8-11-121.jpg

Les
Aug 18, 2012 at 05:09 PM
Yakim Peled
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p.4 #4 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Les, your pics and words are a feast to eyes and minds.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.


Aug 18, 2012 at 06:29 PM
dwweiche
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p.4 #5 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Yakim Peled wrote:
Les, your pics and words are a feast to eyes and minds.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.
+1
Aug 18, 2012 at 06:46 PM
Sjjindra
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p.4 #6 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Les
I also have the 7D and have not had the results you have to date. I have primarilly use the EF400 5.6 or the EF70-200 II at 200 with the 7D when after birds and critters. What ISO, focal length, and shutter speeds do you normally try for, as with your shots posted?
Thanks
Steve
Aug 18, 2012 at 06:52 PM
uz2work
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p.4 #7 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Sjjindra wrote:
Les
I also have the 7D and have not had the results you have to date. I have primarilly use the EF400 5.6 or the EF70-200 II at 200 with the 7D when after birds and critters. What ISO, focal length, and shutter speeds do you normally try for, as with your shots posted?
Thanks
Steve

Steve,

I'm generally trying for shutter speeds at a minimum of 1/1600-1/2000, but I'd prefer to be at 1/2500 or even higher. As I've been shooting this eagle nest documentary project for the last 5 1/2 months, I've had good light some of the time, but, at other times, I've had poor light or the weaker light from just a bit past sunrise. Thus, if I start out very early, I may settle for shutter speeds at, say, 1/1250 if I have to, but, again, I'd rather be higher. At, say 2 hours after sunrise, I'm usually able to get into that 1/2000 range with ISO 400, which is the lowest ISO I've used for shots in the project. When I've had to in order to keep my shutter speeds up, I've raised the ISO to 800 or, occasionally, 1600, and there are a couple of times when I've gone up to 2000. For the shots in the post above, I believe that they were all at ISO 400 with shutter speeds in the 1/1250 to 1/2500 range.

All of the shots that I've posted in this thread were shot at 400 mm with my 400 DO and hand held. I'll shoot it wide open if I have to in order to keep my shutter speeds up, but, if the light will allow, I'll stop down 1/3 of a stop to f4.5. Obviously, if I really need more depth of field, I can stop down further, but I don't recall having done so with any of the shots of the eagle after it fledged. With some of the shots that I have on my website from this project that were taken before the eagle fledged (and those were taken with the 1D Mark IV and 500/4 from a tripod) I did stop down further to get the depth of field needed to capture shots in the nest that included one or both of the the parent birds and the chick.

The shots that I'm adding below are all from the same burst. They involve panning, which is another reason to keep the shutter speed up with the 7D. If you are not panning smoothly and at the same speed as the subject, you introduce something akin to motion blur, and, with the high pixel density of the 7D, that blur is magnified. These were shot fairly early in the morning, and my memory says that the shutter speed was 1/1600. Without adequate shutter speed, I think it would have been likely that one or more of these shots would have exhibited the kind of blur/softness that I described.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3539eagle-nest-8-3-121.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3540eagle-nest-8-3-121.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3543eagle-nest-8-3-121.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3544eagle-nest-8-3-121.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3545eagle-nest-8-3-121.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3546eagle-nest-8-3-121.jpg

Les
Aug 18, 2012 at 07:07 PM
Sjjindra
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p.4 #8 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Les
I appreciate your sharing the specifics and example photos. I usually kept the ISO at 200 during daytime, so at f5.6, my shutter speed was often at 1/800s or lower for perched or grounded birds and around 1200-2000 for BIF. I was often disappointed with the sharpness of most of my photos (I do pixel peep though). Plus, now most of my photos are handheld from a kayak. I'll have to try ISO 400 to 1600 more to get the shutter speed consistantly higher.
Thanks
Steve
Aug 18, 2012 at 08:45 PM
uz2work
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p.4 #9 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Sjjindra wrote:
Les
I appreciate your sharing the specifics and example photos. I usually kept the ISO at 200 during daytime, so at f5.6, my shutter speed was often at 1/800s or lower for perched or grounded birds and around 1200-2000 for BIF. I was often disappointed with the sharpness of most of my photos (I do pixel peep though). Plus, now most of my photos are handheld from a kayak. I'll have to try ISO 400 to 1600 more to get the shutter speed consistantly higher.
Thanks
Steve

Steve,

From your description of your shooting situation, it sounds like you have some things going against you. First, if you are shooting from a kayak, that would seem to guarantee that you are having more camera movement than if you were shooting on solid ground. Then, with the 400/5.6 you don't have IS to help you out, and, with a maximum aperture of f5.6, you are not able to get the shutter speeds that would be possible with a faster lens. That is a lot to overcome. My only thought would be to see how far you can push the ISO to get shutter speeds that will compensate for the kayak and lack of IS realities.

Les
Aug 18, 2012 at 09:44 PM
Imagemaster
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p.4 #10 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Why risk getting motion blur by using shutter speeds that are too slow, when you can comfortably shoot at ISO 1600 on a 7D?







Aug 18, 2012 at 09:53 PM
M Lucca
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p.4 #11 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Alot of great images with the 7d.

But the Imagemaster from above


Aug 19, 2012 at 12:17 AM
Sjjindra
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p.4 #12 · 7D vs. 1D3 for wildlife work (input needed)


Imagemaster and Les
I can see that my biggest error, using the 7D, probably is not using higher ISO for higher shutter speeds. I don't ever remember going to ISO 1600 in daylight, usually staying at 200. I probably would have shot the eagle coming out of the water with my 400 F5.6 at 1/1600 to 1/2000 sec, at most, with low ISO and then later wondered why it was not as sharp as I wanted.
Thanks
Steve
Aug 20, 2012 at 10:05 AM
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