p.3 #2 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
retrofocus wrote:
A full frame sensor can be built into small cameras without issue - look at the Leica and Fuji full frame cameras. Also, many wide angle lenses suitable for full frame are not heavier than those for cropped sensor cameras. The 17-40 is not heavier than my Sigma 10-20 lens for example. I am convinced that full frame will fully move into the Rebel series in only a few years no matter what. With higher MP full frame senor you can easily crop if longer reach is needed (there I see the huge advantage of high MP full frame sensors!). No need for APC-H or -S then. Personally, I am not going to buy any new or used cropped sensor camera at this time. ...Show more →
Yet again you ignore cost in a price sensitive part of the market. Most gearheads don't quibble about a few hundred here and there yet for most people it's a huge factor. If you can produce a FF for $1000, you can produce a crop for $400. Fir the price of the FF you can get a crop camera and 2-3 lenses. There is nothing inherently special about FF that most people need the format.
So frankly I am happy to see all formats continue and for my wildlife camera would currently much prefer an APS-H sensored camera than FF.
p.3 #3 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
ggreene wrote:
The problem is APS-H was synonymous with the 1D series. 7 and 5 series bodies are most certainly not at that level as far as build quality. Unfortunately, Canon has killed off the mid level pro body.
But that's a problem of Canon's choosing and could be remedied very quickly.
What the 1D X has done is delivered a double whammy of low pixel density and no AF at f/8. One or the other I could live with, but not both. To do what I do now with the 1D X would necessitate buying even longer glass just to break even.
p.3 #4 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
What I find to be somewhat ironic is that Canon abandoned the 1.3 crop at just the point when they finally got it "right", so to speak, and when they finally, in the 1D Mark IV, exploited the full potential of the format.
While the 1D was an an outstanding camera for its day, its pixel density was lower than that of the 1Ds. And, while the 1D Mark II was another excellent camera for its time, its pixel density was lower than that of the 1Ds Mark II. Similarly, the pixel density of the 1D Mark III was lower than that of the 1Ds Mark III. With the 1D Mark IV, Canon offered a body with pixel density higher, by a good margin, than that of any full frame body that it has yet produced and one that can shoot at 10 fps and has outstanding AF, excellent per pixel image quality, excellent noise control with higher ISO, etc. For as much as I enjoyed using the 1D Mark II (and 1D Mark III), the 1D Mark IV is a far superior camera. In focal length limited situations, it was the first 1-series body that had the pixel density and image quality that gave me some of the cropping flexibility that I had previously dreamed about having.
Even though I doubt that Canon will do so, I'd jump on the opportunity to buy a "next generation" 1.3 crop body, whether it be in a 1-series format or a smaller format. At the same time, the 2 current Canon full frame offerings, while they may well perfectly meet the needs of some, would be a step backward for my needs, and I, therefore, have no interest in either of them.
p.3 #5 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Wow, people here are way to wishy-washy about their own unique snowflake shooting style that a NOTHING but a 1.3 crop will get the results that need/want to believe. Sorry, APS-H is dead, its just something to hold over for FF since technology at that time is not up for a high ISO/FPS/resolution pro body that Nikon's been doing for years. Now that Canon has caught up, the ones that are the most emotional invested in their systems are up in arms as if Canon has some sort of vendetta against them.
p.3 #6 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
panicatnabisco wrote:
Wow, people here are way to wishy-washy about their own unique snowflake shooting style that a NOTHING but a 1.3 crop will get the results that need/want to believe. Sorry, APS-H is dead, its just something to hold over for FF since technology at that time is not up for a high ISO/FPS/resolution pro body that Nikon's been doing for years. Now that Canon has caught up, the ones that are the most emotional invested in their systems are up in arms as if Canon has some sort of vendetta against them.
I am not in the least way "up in arms" because Canon has decided to discontinue their line of 1.3 crop bodies. I fully accept that Canon is going to offer an array of camera bodies that will maximize their bottom line, and I also accept that it is then up to me to decide whether or not to buy those bodies.
What does, however, offend me is when others want to tell me what equipment is best suited for my shooting and want to tell me that I can't figure out for myself what works best for that shooting. I accept that others are capable of figuring out for themselves what equipment works best for what they shoot, and I would expect that others would offer the same courtesy to me.
p.3 #7 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
panicatnabisco wrote:
Wow, people here are way to wishy-washy about their own unique snowflake shooting style that a NOTHING but a 1.3 crop will get the results that need/want to believe. Sorry, APS-H is dead, its just something to hold over for FF since technology at that time is not up for a high ISO/FPS/resolution pro body that Nikon's been doing for years. Now that Canon has caught up, the ones that are the most emotional invested in their systems are up in arms as if Canon has some sort of vendetta against them.
I'm glad you can get buy with just FF but I certainly cannot. I have a 5D III and still would never get of my 1D IV or 7D for wildlife work, even if they were just backups, which they're not. Your statements indicate you have zero clue as to why many of have no interest in the 1D X and that you have never done wildlife shooting in general and in particular birding. You obviously have no appreciation of shooting in FL limited scenarios. You may think the wildlife market is small but we are the guys that have caused sales of Canon's superteles skyrocket from the film days. Even Canon themselves were marketing the 1D IV based on the extra reach it offered sports shooters and they said they delivered the 7D based on it's customer feedback and their desire for a high performance crop camera.
The crop format is a specialised format that is ideally suited to the type of shooting many of us do and I'd rather spend $2K on an 18MP 1.6x crop camera than a $7K on an 18MP FF that basically puts me back at 1D III levels for reach.
p.3 #9 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Pixel Perfect wrote:
The crop format is a specialised format that is ideally suited to the type of shooting many of us do and I'd rather spend $2K on an 18MP 1.6x crop camera than a $7K on an 18MP FF that basically puts me back at 1D III levels for reach.
p.3 #10 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
I agree, APS-H or the 1.3x crop sensor is dead. But, what is more bothersome is the fact that it was AWESOME that Canon had two one series bodies before and that they were placed wide apart in regards to price. The 1D series was generally about $4500 whereas the 1DS's were closer to $7000 (or a touch more).
Now, this nonsense that the 1DX replaces the 1DS's and the 1D's is total bull.
They gave us 7D resolution at 1DS price. Thats totally absurd IMHO.
Just as I though the 5D2 was the greatest value in DSLRs, the 1DX is one of the worst.
Thank god the 5D mark III is that good. Its like a mini 1 series.
p.3 #11 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Yes, I can see that 5DMKIII will be a very successful camera, particularly as its price starts to dip under $3,000.
One reason for that IMO is a blend of well balanced performance traits, which makes 5DMkIII attractive to many fields of photography, including sports, PJ and wildlife.
I think many users of the old 1.3 crop cameras will buy into the 5DMkIII excellence.
About 1DX I am not so sure. The camera seems very good, yet its high price is an irritant or even an obstacle to many users of 1DMkII, III and IV. I do not see the 1DX buying momentum really picking up until its price drops to under $5,000.
Canon seem to think that they can still ride the old wave of $8k FF pro camera bodies......thus, they may reason, a $6.8k FF body such as 1DX should sell like hot cakes. Well, I am not sure of that, the times have changed.
p.3 #12 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Especially given that Nikon's flagship is almost $1000 less with some features the 1DX is missing. For some reason the yen/dollar exchange rate is not impacting Nikon nearly as much as Canon. I'm really hoping Nikon has a killer replacement for the D700 in the works. Not because I would switch as I'm fairly happy with my equipment but to get Canon to maybe rethink a mid level pro body.
p.3 #13 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
PetKal wrote:
Yes, I can see that 5DMKIII will be a very successful camera, particularly as its price starts to dip under $3,000.
One reason for that IMO is a blend of well balanced performance traits, which makes 5DMkIII attractive to many fields of photography, including sports, PJ and wildlife.
I think many users of the old 1.3 crop cameras will buy into the 5DMkIII excellence.
About 1DX I am not so sure. The camera seems very good, yet its high price is an irritant or even an obstacle to many users of 1DMkII, III and IV. I do not see the 1DX buying momentum really picking up until its price drops to under $5,000.
Canon seem to think that they can still ride the old wave of $8k FF pro camera bodies......thus, they may reason, a $6.8k FF body such as 1DX should sell like hot cakes. Well, I am not sure of that, the times have changed....Show more →
I just think the opposite here. I would be very - very - surprised if we find out in one year from now that the 5D III was selling extremely well. I am still convinced that the 5D III will be regarded only as a stepping stone to its much better all round high MP full frame model in the very near future. It will be remembered as a wrongly priced but good improvement in AF compared to the 5D II, but nothing else.
On the other hand the 1Dx seems to be an improvement compared to the 1Ds predecessor full frame model before. Price-wise I agree, the current one doesn't justify for its features still having a 18 MP sensor (arguing that this was needed to match the better fps performance).
I believe both the 5D III and the 1Dx will not sell very well, also if the price drops (admittedly the 5D III will still sell better than the 1Dx). Time for Canon to move on and to get over the 5D III/1Dx episode. And we see signs at the horizon that Canon already does this.
p.3 #14 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
TOTALLY agree.
i shot apsc, FF (5D2) and apsh, and i left with a 1D3 and 1D4.
IQ-wise, the 1D3 is not far behind it's successor which is only better at higher iso's.
i was really hoping for a new FF body with the 1D4 sensor in FF-format (27mp).
imagine a relatively light 15-18mp apsh-1D5 with the new AF-system...
the only reason to jump on a 1dx would be the need for cleaner high iso shooting.
a new asph body with a 1D4-type sensor in a 7D-like body ? why not ?
but i'd prefer a 5D-like body with a new 1D4-quality sensor in FF format, seriously.
uz2work wrote:
What I find to be somewhat ironic is that Canon abandoned the 1.3 crop at just the point when they finally got it "right", so to speak, and when they finally, in the 1D Mark IV, exploited the full potential of the format.
While the 1D was an an outstanding camera for its day, its pixel density was lower than that of the 1Ds. And, while the 1D Mark II was another excellent camera for its time, its pixel density was lower than that of the 1Ds Mark II. Similarly, the pixel density of the 1D Mark III was lower than that of the 1Ds Mark III. With the 1D Mark IV, Canon offered a body with pixel density higher, by a good margin, than that of any full frame body that it has yet produced and one that can shoot at 10 fps and has outstanding AF, excellent per pixel image quality, excellent noise control with higher ISO, etc. For as much as I enjoyed using the 1D Mark II (and 1D Mark III), the 1D Mark IV is a far superior camera. In focal length limited situations, it was the first 1-series body that had the pixel density and image quality that gave me some of the cropping flexibility that I had previously dreamed about having.
Even though I doubt that Canon will do so, I'd jump on the opportunity to buy a "next generation" 1.3 crop body, whether it be in a 1-series format or a smaller format. At the same time, the 2 current Canon full frame offerings, while they may well perfectly meet the needs of some, would be a step backward for my needs, and I, therefore, have no interest in either of them.
p.3 #15 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
The BIg problem with the 1DX is two fold. First, it offers only 7D resolution. That is fine BUT because of, second, the PRICE! is too high. It really does not replace the 1DS series. No way.
So the 1DX is basically a MUCH more expensive 1D series. Much improved 1D series yes. But NO way its a 1DS mkIV...
I really like when there were TWO 1 series options at different prices...Thats actually more important to me than the loss of the 1.3x crop sensor.
p.3 #16 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
The big problem with the 1DX is that it doesn't replace ANYTHING. It lacks the pixel density, AF at f/8, and even flash sync speed of the 1D4. Plus you have to deal with a horribly implemented AF illumination design. At least 1DsIII owners get a price break. 1D4 owners get a 40% increase in cost for something that on many levels can't match the previous body.
Fully agree about the loss of two 1D models. Canon seemed to have a perfect balance between the two models. Why they decided to chuck the concept is beyond me. You're basically left to wonder whether it was all just a scheme to gouge the users for even more.
p.3 #17 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
ggreene wrote:
Fully agree about the loss of two 1D models. Canon seemed to have a perfect balance between the two models. Why they decided to chuck the concept is beyond me. You're basically left to wonder whether it was all just a scheme to gouge the users for even more.
If it was a scheme to gouge users, I'm not sure it is working. I don't see large numbers of people rushing to buy one. Even on this and other internet birds, the number of people who have bought a 1DX seems considerably smaller than it has been for new 1D bodies in the past, and the bulk of those who have gotten one seems to come from the group of those who have customarily bought every new body just because it is a new, but many who have always bought new 1-series bodies immediately after release in the past, including myself, have decided to pass on the 1DX. And that seems to apply to both those who have bought 1D bodies and those who have bought 1Ds bodies in the past.
While, for a variety of reasons, the supply never caught up with the demand for the 1D Mark IV right through its entire life cycle, I won't be surprised if the 1DX is readily available very soon.
For me, it isn't really even a matter of price. I'd have no trouble paying a 1Ds level price if the camera was one that met my needs, but, as I said in a previous post, I have no need to sell off a 1D Mark IV, and a 500/4, add $10,000 to buy a 1Dx and 600/4, and then end up with a camera/lens combination that is bigger, weighs more, and puts fewer pixels on the subject than the camera and lens that I've been using.
p.3 #18 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
I think that small issue of 1D X is exactly that fact that its not APS-H.. And if you crop from 18 mpix to 1.3x Im pretty sure you wont reach 1DMKIV resolution... (if Im not wrong its almost 14 mpix).
Ofc it has nice AF, quite resonable SNR and such.. but is it true upgrade to either 1DsMK3 or 1DMK4? Doesnt seem so... More like additional model somewhere between. True X.
p.3 #19 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
Mescalamba wrote:
I think that small issue of 1D X is exactly that fact that its not APS-H.. And if you crop from 18 mpix to 1.3x Im pretty sure you wont reach 1DMKIV resolution... (if Im not wrong its almost 14 mpix).
No, if you crop a 1DX down to the same field of view as a 1D Mark IV image taken with the same lens from the same distance, the cropped 1DX image will have fewer than 11 megapixels remaining, which is approximately the same as that of an uncropped 1D Mark III image and substantially less than that of an uncropped 16 megapixel 1D Mark IV image.
p.3 #20 · Will there ever be APS-H in a compact body?
So if the 1DX were a True 1DS replacement with about 30-40MP then it would work out when cropping? I know you would end up with much larger raw files but that would work? Or maybe they could include a 1.3x crop mode with viewfinder masking or marks and correspondingly smaller raw file? Canon could have done that real easy I think.
