JeffHall916 wrote:
Let me clear this up, I am helping my mother in law. She hired a photographer but she loves the way I take pictures so I said I would help out, that's it. I am NOT the main photo guy lol. But just want to make sure I have all that I should need
Good, I was gonna say that the first thing you needed is a second, more experienced!, photographer! So, since you are the second photographer then its much less pressure. You do not need to cover everything just pick and choose your moments. The gear you have is fine!
Some wedding photographers will hate you even if you just flash a DSLR and a half-decent lens. Some wedding photographers just don't care. Yes, there are photographers who demand official exclusivity (see Jeff Ascough). Your best bet, as has been said, is to have the bridge/groom talk to the prime photographer and work it out. You should talk to him/her also to get guidelines. Most of the guidelines will typically involve:
1. DO NOT get in the way. Do NOT piggyback on his/her perspective. Always yield, and let the prime photog do his/her work. Stay out of the picture: never be in a straight line between the bride/groom or the prime photographer (stay out of the line of sight).
2. Any posed sessions are the prime photographers responsibility. Just put your camera away during that time.
3. Keep flash to an absolute minimum, or abandon it altogether. Flash makes people aware of photographers and changes their behavior. Some people hate that.
Some constructive advice on equipment:
If you just want to take pictures, a 5DMIII and a 24-70 will be fine. People shoot entire weddings with such gear.
If you want to be serious, you'll need a telephoto. It can be challenging to do good first kiss, processional, or ceremony shots without it, since even at 70mm you're at a very intrusive distance. If you are comfy working with primes, a 35 1.4 and an 85 1.2 will work great, since they'll be good for dimly lit receptions, and deliver good background blur. It's not unusual to be at ISO1600 or 3200 wide open on a 1.4 prime (i.e., a 24-70 2.8 may be slow).
I did caution against flash, but if somehow the prime green lights you on flash, a more powerful flash is useful. If you're going to fill in daylight shots, gels are almost mandatory. Indoors, bounce if you can, if you can't, think about an off camera flash bracket. Diffuser at a absolute worst. Direct flash is just wretched.
I do use a tripod very very sparingly, mostly for creative shots. 99% of the time, a tripod will simply slow you down and get in people's way. It's easier just to ditch it.
Personally, I don't mind other people with DSLR's taking photos of the bride. I do know however, that some photographers can be assholes, and some 'uncle toms' (industry word for unofficial photographers that steal lots of shots) can be truly irritating.
Understand that the prime photographer is under a lot of pressure to deliver. He/she knows that these photos will become lifelong mementos, and they work very hard to fulfill this responsibility. Just don't do anything to disrupt that.
krickett wrote:
Here's my 2 cents as a wedding photographer...
Some wedding photographers will hate you even if you just flash a DSLR and a half-decent lens. Some wedding photographers just don't care. Yes, there are photographers who demand official exclusivity (see Jeff Ascough). Your best bet, as has been said, is to have the bridge/groom talk to the prime photographer and work it out. You should talk to him/her also to get guidelines. Most of the guidelines will typically involve:
1. DO NOT get in the way. Do NOT piggyback on his/her perspective. Always yield, and let the prime photog do his/her work. Stay out of the picture: never be in a straight line between the bride/groom or the prime photographer (stay out of the line of sight).
2. Any posed sessions are the prime photographers responsibility. Just put your camera away during that time.
3. Keep flash to an absolute minimum, or abandon it altogether. Flash makes people aware of photographers and changes their behavior. Some people hate that.
Some constructive advice on equipment:
If you just want to take pictures, a 5DMIII and a 24-70 will be fine. People shoot entire weddings with such gear.
If you want to be serious, you'll need a telephoto. It can be challenging to do good first kiss, processional, or ceremony shots without it, since even at 70mm you're at a very intrusive distance. If you are comfy working with primes, a 35 1.4 and an 85 1.2 will work great, since they'll be good for dimly lit receptions, and deliver good background blur. It's not unusual to be at ISO1600 or 3200 wide open on a 1.4 prime (i.e., a 24-70 2.8 may be slow).
I did caution against flash, but if somehow the prime green lights you on flash, a more powerful flash is useful. If you're going to fill in daylight shots, gels are almost mandatory. Indoors, bounce if you can, if you can't, think about an off camera flash bracket. Diffuser at a absolute worst. Direct flash is just wretched.
I do use a tripod very very sparingly, mostly for creative shots. 99% of the time, a tripod will simply slow you down and get in people's way. It's easier just to ditch it.
Personally, I don't mind other people with DSLR's taking photos of the bride. I do know however, that some photographers can be assholes, and some 'uncle toms' (industry word for unofficial photographers that steal lots of shots) can be truly irritating.
Understand that the prime photographer is under a lot of pressure to deliver. He/she knows that these photos will become lifelong mementos, and they work very hard to fulfill this responsibility. Just don't do anything to disrupt that.
slee915 wrote:
You certainly don't want to disappoint your mother in law.
I shot a wedding about a month ago as uncle Bob, requested by my mother in law too. I mainly use my 24-70. Occasionally pull out a 35L and 70-200 f/2.8. I tried not to get in the way of the paid wedding photographer. I pretty much stay in my seat to shoot during the ceremony, using the right FL to get the shot.
with the 5d3, don't hesitate to use high ISO to get a good shutter speed. Forget the tripod.
I agree, shoot lots of candids, use high ISO, don't get in the way of the paid pro, etc.
And have a good time!
As I wrote earlier, I've never heard of a "pro contract" for a wedding shoot that prohibited other family and friend photographers from shooting the event. I don't shoot weddings (with only a few very rare exceptions), but I've never heard of such a thing.
In my somewhat limited but not quite non-existent experience, wedding photographers expect that family and friends will also be there making photographs. As long as the F&F (family and friends) photographers don't interfere and don't distract the hired gun, it is very unlikely to be a problem. F&F photogs will be less likely to create a fuss if they resist the temptation to impress the wedding photogs with their personal prowess and gear, and please don't go talk camera gear with them. (There can be exceptions, but be sensitive.) I've seen some become perturbed when others shoot over their shoulder during staged shots and I've seen others who seemed to not care all that much - they do know that what they will provide is almost certainly not going to be what the F&F folks create, even if they shoot the same stuff.
When our daughter got married we looked carefully for good wedding photographers. Although I have a brother who is a talented photographer, the last thing I wanted was to ask him to do this. And as father of the bride, I was certainly not remotely interested in being responsible for this. I did have my camera at the wedding and the reception, leaving it in my car. At one point, I did go retrieve the camera and make a few informal shots of my kids, including one in which the hired photographers were also part of the shot. I shared a copy with them later so they would have a photographer of themselves at work. (I had told them ahead of time of my own photographic work, and had made a point of letting them know that my photographic expertise lies somewhere other than wedding photography.) There was no problem, and the whole thing was quite cordial.
Basically, just use common sense. Think about how your would respond if you were the hired photographer, focusing on meeting the terms of your contract and the expectations of the family and couple. Many of these photographers (but, yes, not all) are "people" people, and enjoy the interaction and are willing to talk to you about this stuff... as long as you respect their space, and their work, and stay the heck out of the way.
Take care,
Dan
Ziffl3 wrote:
you are right about not getting permission..... but did you check the pro contract. pretty much i bet it will say something about he/she is the only shooter - regardless what another family member may say. granted this would be referencing another want-a-be pro shooter. if you come armed like one .... you might get treated like one.
just saying.....
And yes, i have told uncle bob/bobette to step back and out because they were taking pictures of everything i set up. not because of the setup but because the clients did not know where to look.
also... understand if it is a big event there would be multiple pro shooters but that is in a different league.
I so can't understand why anybody would want to shoot wedding pictures with a dslr if they weren't required to. Sounds incredibly boring and way too much like a job. Plus the major dork factor.
I guess the reasons for bringing a DSLR to a wedding are varied, but I often bring mine if I'm particularly close to the wedding party. The main reason is that our close relationship means I am in a position to spot nuances in expressions that are particular to the couple/family, and capturing those can mean a lot. Good Pros can do the same thing, but not all Pros are good, unfortunately.
The second reason is that I love taking photographs, and I've got kit to do them justice. If I photography felt like work I'd sell my kit.
As for my opinion as an occasional Uncle Bobber, I would reiterate some of the earlier advice - keep out of the way of the Pro, and keep the kit subtle. I've taken some good (in my opinion) shots with pretty basic kit - normally my 5D mk1 and a couple of relatively fast lenses. The combination of a 17-35 f/2.8, 50 f/1.4 and 85 f/1.8 works well for me, but I could probably lose the 85mm. I sometimes take my 70-200 f/4, but only if a good chunk of the day is outside. I'd recommend leaving the flash at home for all the reasons given by others, but I admit I sometime use my 430EXII to help with focus accuracy and speed (with 'flash fires' disabled in the custom functions). Gotta give the old mk1 all the help it can get!
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8016/7664367770_11d6bdcd97_c.jpg
5D mk1, 50mm f/1.4 - the groom's shirt prior to the wedding, with cuff-links bearing the lion rampant of Scotland (important to the groom, and the Pro did all the pre-wedding shots with the Bride, understandably).
Ziffl3 wrote:
And yes, i have told uncle bob/bobette to step back and out because they were taking pictures of everything i set up. not because of the setup but because the clients did not know where to look.
Nothing is more irritating than having a bunch of P&S and uncle Bob's in your neck while shooting the formals. Eyes all over the place. As a (hired) pro it is appropriate to say something about it IMHO.
I am a swiss wedding photographer and do a lot of weddings and other corporate stuf.
My advice, forget the tripot and buy some fast lenses.
I use following gear
1. 5Dmk II + backup " backup
2. 35 1.4L
3. 50 1.2L
4. 24-70 2.8
5. 70-200 L
6. flash
7. Fujifilm X Pro 1 with 35 and 60mm
BUT, you do not need all that gear. If i only could use one lens, it would be the Canon 50mm 1.2L
Your 24-70 and 5Dmk III should be more than enough. Just do not forget to have fun. Do not tink to much abou the other pro photographer. if he lets disturb him by you taking photos, he is not a pro. A pro photographer does his job anytime, anywhere and anyhow. WHAO
I am not a pro. I've taken my 1ds2 and 85 1.2 to four or five family weddings. I have zero interest in formal shots, but I enjoy shooting people I know and taking enough shots to get the story. I don't like making small talk and I do like taking pictures.
I've given the bride cheap Kodak books that tell the story of the wedding in clean, simple strokes. In most cases, there was a "pro" shooter or even bunches of shooters.
The feedback I get is the simplicity of telling the story and the immediacy of sending a cheap book (I'll send it in a week or so) makes the shots I do far more meaningful than the pros' shots. I have a huge advantage in having the trust of people and knowing how they interact.
What the "pros" have done at each of these weddings has been to take at least 4 months to get anything out. When they finally produce something, it is a dump of a zillion shots with no attempt to edit or prioritize. The formal shots are supposedly the money shots, but they are mind numbingly boring to me.
So I guess I'm a cynic about the "average" wedding pro. I don't think the "average" wedding pro is anywhere near as experienced or committed as the people who read and post on this forum.
I am interested in art, not commerce. I don't want to mess up pros or compromise their livelihood. But I gotta believe a real pro like the ones I see on this forum can and do a whole lot more than I do to get great shots, edit them beautifully and present them in a timely manner. They do that, and I am no threat.
BTW, I always avoid pro sight lines and never horn in on their setups. I haven't ever "negotiated" with the pro at the ceremony, I just use common sense and stay very laid back.
I'm genuinely sorry if my actions are hurting you and the "pros," but I am a committed artist, and I don't back away from my art just because there's a hired gun shooting.
I would call myself a "pro". Means, I am trying to make my living with photography. But I am interested in feelings. That is why I shoot people. A "real pro" imo is not interested in commerce only. He is interested in doing a great job and making his customers happy, first. He is interested in catching outstanding moments. And he is interested in getting paid for THAT. A "pro" who is interested in making money only is not living any "profession". He could work at wallstreet, too. I would not call him/her a "pro" shooter.
There are many photographers out there, who seem to be happy in beeing just a slave of capitalism. There are many out there too, who feel responsible for their customers and take much care of what they are doing and deliver more then a "done business". Many of them produce, what you might call art, too. They are easy to find. One just has to compare their different results.
You must not be sorry (your last sentence). A booked shooter, who is leaving, because some guest bring their "guns", imo is not a "pro" in any way. He just fears competition. I often saw books or collections after a wedding mixing my shots with guests ones. Everybody can see the difference in timing, composing, quality and reliability. So who cares, as long the couple is happy? In some cases I have been happy myself too, because one or the other guest did a great pic, I was not able to catch!
That was why I started to offer a team service to my customers when their wedding is planed as a BIG event (around 100 or more guests). I love to shoot with a "partner" I can trust upon. Four eyes see more, than two. Different angles of the same (timed) action offer more possibilities.
The only uncomfortable situations I came in with guest shooters where when "uncle Toms" try to copy my positions, standing next to me or sitting in my neck. Or when they try to start a conversation about gear and ask me, how to use theirs. Today I just give them my bussiness card and tell them, that I do coachings, too and that I am sorry about I NOW have to do my (other) JOB. It already generated nice additional pleasure. And income, too.
PDoc wrote:
I guess the reasons for bringing a DSLR to a wedding are varied, but I often bring mine if I'm particularly close to the wedding party. The main reason is that our close relationship means I am in a position to spot nuances in expressions that are particular to the couple/family, and capturing those can mean a lot. Good Pros can do the same thing, but not all Pros are good, unfortunately.
The second reason is that I love taking photographs, and I've got kit to do them justice. If I photography felt like work I'd sell my kit.
Jack Kelley wrote:
Piggybacking on what others have said, I think your first task is to work out a very specific arrangement with the pro. I remember attending a wedding as a guest where a relative of the bride brought a camera and offered his photos to friends and family at very low cost, significantly undercutting the pro's sales. Talk about bad blood, even the bride was ticked off.
This whole concept irritates me. I regularly bring gear to friend's weddings. I've done it five times. When I finish, I dump the lot on Flickr or Facebook, full-res, no watermark. Without fail, the bride, groom, and wedding party love it. The wedding photographers have never had a problem with it. In two cases, my photos were better than the professionals. For the others, I was basically a teaser; the 50-100 shots I post encompass a narrow gamut of people and moments. The professionals should, and often do, have much more to offer.
The money argument falls flat to me. Print sales are antiquated, save for the wedding album. Digital copies matter, and they don't cost anything to distribute. Photographers these days seem to realize this and front-load on the costs. Most charge $2000-$4000 to shoot a wedding. They're not going home hungry if Bessie decides not to buy that 8x10.
There are things you can do to minimize annoyance:
* Don't have a huge kit. I do my wedding shots with a normal DSLR body (i.e., not a 1D), an ultrawide zoom (17-40, 16-35) and a portrait lens (85/1.8, 100/2). No flash. If you can't get a shot, tough cookies. It's not your job.
* Don't follow the paid people around and don't get in the way of their shots.
* Don't be 'on' all the time. You're supposed to have fun. So have fun, and if you see a nice shot, take it. Your memory of the wedding shouldn't be the shot of other people having fun and you chimping.
If the paid guy has a problem with your candids, he can go fly a kite.
alexdi wrote:
If the paid guy has a problem with your candids, he can go fly a kite.
great intro in a new day! Thank you alexdi. :-)
The couple is thankfull about any wonderful picture, they will get. Their happiness should be the goal for any "pro" shooter, first. If guests pictures are "better" (whatever that means) then the booked shooters ones, he should think about his business and capabilities and about his communication with the couple befor the evemt. Instead of forbidding "uncle Toms".
great intro in a new day! Thank you alexdi. :-)