pKai wrote:
I completely understand the math behind the sensor size VS pixel density VS reach issues. For most people that don't live in a lab, this doesn't matter much..... That's not a slam on you, BTW, *I* used to live in a lab coding weather computer models and then I got my sanity back....
I was just trying to present to the OP in simple terms what he will actually see through the viewfinder. He will see a similar FOV with a 600 as a 960mm lens would see. Yes, perspective would not be the same, DOF will not be the same, etc, etc, etc....... that aside, for all practical purposes, a 600 is a 960 on a 7D. ...Show more →
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree. The mere fact that the 7D sensor, being significantly smaller than the 5D sensor, crops the image projected by the lens certainly does not result in "for all practical purposes, a 600 is a 960 on a 7D." We buy long lenses for their ability to "reach" far away objects, not for their field of view. My old 10D and my 5D3 have essentially the same pixel density, but the 10D sensor crops the image projected just as the 7D sensor crops the image projected. In no way is a 600 a 960 on a 7D, other than FOV (which is meaningless, since one can crop the 5D image to the same exact size/pixel count as the 10D). The only useful way to think of "crop reach" is pixels per duck, not FOV, IMO.
pKai wrote:
I completely understand the math behind the sensor size VS pixel density VS reach issues. For most people that don't live in a lab, this doesn't matter much..... That's not a slam on you, BTW, *I* used to live in a lab coding weather computer models and then I got my sanity back....
I was just trying to present to the OP in simple terms what he will actually see through the viewfinder. He will see a similar FOV with a 600 as a 960mm lens would see. Yes, perspective would not be the same, DOF will not be the same, etc, etc, etc....... that aside, for all practical purposes, a 600 is a 960 on a 7D. ...Show more →
but for all practical purposes people don't give about FOV when distance limited, they care about that when they are NOT distance limited, like if you doing a wide landscape then a 50mm does act like an 80mm but when you are distance limited the FOV is meaningless and it's sensor density that is all that matters
Who really cares about the math involved re FOV and crop reach? The 7D simply gives you a better image than the 5DII image cropped to result in the same-sized final image.
For my practical purposes, my 1DMk4 makes my 400mm a 520mm. To hell with the math.
Imagemaster wrote:
Who really cares about the math involved re FOV and crop reach? The 7D simply gives you a better image than the 5DII image cropped to result in the same-sized final image.
For my practical purposes, my 1DMk4 makes my 400mm a 520mm. To hell with the math.
+1 I get much better images from my 7D then I get with my 5DIII cropped to the same size. No comparison really.
the cropped version is about 8mp , and most of my shots from that day have ended up around 7-10mp . I took my 1D2n with me and never used it. the loss of crop in body and only 8mp to start would have left me with not much to work with.
I want to go back next year and plan on hiring a 500/4. I also hope/plan to have purchased a 5D3 by then as well but would still keep and use the7D for this as the gain of a 100mm would be more than offset by the larger sensor (which cropped down to 1.6 is just about 9mp)
so if i get a FF its likely to see most use from all my other lenses but the 7D could most likely have my 100-400 welded onto it
Imagemaster wrote:
Who really cares about the math involved re FOV and crop reach? The 7D simply gives you a better image than the 5DII image cropped to result in the same-sized final image.
For my practical purposes, my 1DMk4 makes my 400mm a 520mm. To hell with the math.
Exactly!
Practical means this: I have a 5D2, 1D4, and 7D and some telephoto lens... A critter approaches. Which body do you grab if your goal is to fill the frame with said critter?
The answer depends on a few things such as the size of the critter, how fast he moves, whether you can (or want to) physically get closer, what my goal is for the image, etc.... No math needed to make this decision. All 3 cameras can produce an excellent image.. the goal should always be the least amount of PP cropping possible.
Generally, I carry my 7D with a 400 5.6 and my 5D2 with a 70-300 4-5.6L. This is my "generic" wildlife setup. Sometimes, I switch this around if I want to do BIF with the 70-300 and then use the 400 for larger, perching critters. In the bag I may have a 16-35, 24-105, 70-200 -- depending on conditions, etc....
I have a 1D4 on loan from CPS that I'm evaluating against the 7D.... One of the worries is the 1.3 VS 1.6 crop. I expect the 1D4 will be better in every other way.
It must also be a plus to have a backup camera or two cameras with complementing lenses?
I have used both 7D + 5D2 and recently upgraded to 5d3, but I can still see some situations where the 7D will be used. The differences in UI are a bit annoying, though.
I think Canon made a very good product with the 7D, am hoping for a 7DmkII (With 5DIII AF and D800 pixels it would be a dream come true.... I can wish, can't I?).
ClausC wrote:
It must also be a plus to have a backup camera or two cameras with complementing lenses?
I have used both 7D + 5D2 and recently upgraded to 5d3, but I can still see some situations where the 7D will be used. The differences in UI are a bit annoying, though.
I think Canon made a very good product with the 7D, am hoping for a 7DmkII (With 5DIII AF and D800 pixels it would be a dream come true.... I can wish, can't I?).
regards
Claus
Well I think you will be waiting a pretty long time.
The new firmware for the 7D indicates no mk2 for a year at least.
and if by "D800" pixels you mean 36mp , well I can't think what that would be like on a crop sensor. Even with advancements in sensor tech (which if you believe what is said around Here etc Nikon/Sony have the advantage I've canon) I doubt it would look great over 800iso (and I don't mean 100% pixel peeping) .
If by D800 pixels you mean pixel density then the d800 has less than the 7D .
I would be in for a 7D2 next year if it had
The same 18mp improved by a stop .
The same AF system as the 5D3 . I don't mind if for size reasons it' had the outer rows cut off .
2 card slots would be nice. 1 CF and 1 SD please. But please can it have the faster SD that the 5D3 lacks . (oh and a buffer that's still decent when it's in dual format mode )
p.2 #10 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?
Ian.Dobinson wrote:
and if by "D800" pixels you mean 36mp , well I can't think what that would be like on a crop sensor.
If by D800 pixels you mean pixel density then the d800 has less than the 7D .
I was thinking "D800-quality" (with regard to noise), the density is OK as is..
p.2 #12 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?
Imagemaster wrote:
Who really cares about the math involved re FOV and crop reach? The 7D simply gives you a better image than the 5DII image cropped to result in the same-sized final image.
For my practical purposes, my 1DMk4 makes my 400mm a 520mm. To hell with the math.
the problem with the to hell with the math is that you'd also think your 10D would make you 400mm a 640mm and yet your bird would have less pixels on it than if it were taken with a non-crop 5D3
p.2 #13 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?
skibum5 wrote:
the problem with the to hell with the math is that you'd also think your 10D would make you 400mm a 640mm and yet your bird would have less pixels on it than if it were taken with a non-crop 5D3
Yeah , I take the baseline as the 21mp 5D2 = the 8mo crop 20/30D (as near as makes no difference.)
So crop a 5D2 file down to 1.6 and you would have the same 'pixels per duck'
Any crop sensor over 8mp will give you more. I havnt worked out the 5D3 but I don't think it would be over 9mp crop.
p.2 #14 · 5D2 *plus* 7D for extra telephoto reach?
Ian.Dobinson wrote:
Yeah , I take the baseline as the 21mp 5D2 = the 8mo crop 20/30D (as near as makes no difference.)
So crop a 5D2 file down to 1.6 and you would have the same 'pixels per duck'
Any crop sensor over 8mp will give you more. I havnt worked out the 5D3 but I don't think it would be over 9mp crop.
Out of curiosity, I went back and made more precise calculations for the effective "pixels-per-duck" factor for the 7D versus 5D2/5D3 (based on StarNut's comments earlier). I used the megapixels and sensor sizes given on wikipedia (apparently the 7D sensor size is 22.3x14.9mm, not 18x24mm as I initially read elsewhere).
7D versus 5D2: 1.49
7D versus 5D3: 1.45
So it's theoretically about 1.5x.
Of course this doesn't take into account the differences in "pixel quality" (noise, DR, etc.).
