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Archive 2012 · Spot metering question, please clarify

  
 
Avi B
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p.2 #1 · Spot metering question, please clarify


Slug69 wrote:
This post and your previous is outrageous for this forum.

The D70 has spot metering just like almost all other Nikon SLR's. Edit: You were right though, the dimensions I spoke about were for Centre weighted - I never use centre weighted only matrix or Spot. Spot evaluates on approx 1 percent or about 2mm in the viewfinder.

Another reason why the Nikon might nail exposure so well on peoples faces when using spot is that it uses a colour meter. Most other makers of cameras haven't been putting colour ev meters in until only recently.

You would still need a grey card
...Show more

Actually the D70/D70s had the same meter as the D2H did... And yeah I did the same thing on my D70s, I'd spot meter on people's faces to give me an inkling of where my exposure should be.



Jul 28, 2012 at 07:57 AM
rhyder
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p.2 #2 · Spot metering question, please clarify


jmcfadden wrote:
wow so much mis-information and so little time............

Try THIS exercise (this is how i teach my students)

Go to the camera store and buy a Standard Kodak Grey Card for 5 bux

now hold it so it is evenly illuminated by any light source be it outside or inside but start outside to make the exercise simpler

Put your camera in MANUAL
Set the meter to SPOT
Zero the meter on the card

Now WITHOUT changing settings for aperture or shutter speed look thru the viewfinder and Observe your environment

See the grass lit by the sun WHAT does the METER read? MAKE A MEntal Note

What does
...Show more

This is what I teach my students also...I also refer to the 2 stops above and below middle gray as "White" with detail..and.."Black" with detail. I cover this right after the exposure triad in the beginning photo course.



Jul 28, 2012 at 08:07 AM
Rags Hef
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p.2 #3 · Spot metering question, please clarify


jmcfadden wrote:
exercises like the use of a grey card give instruction and inform the learner to be able to use just about Anything in a scene in order to determine an exposure calculation based on what they deem most important and be able to take charge of the EV based on various factors

Do they want Motion emphasized? Build the EV around the desired shutter speed

DO they need to Freeze action? again build the EV around That shutter speed

WHat about DOF , the build around that EV

Once the exercises are learned well they are faster then the inanity of cumbersome constructs like
...Show more

Jim I don't think you're concept of mastering the academic aspects of photography is a bad thing; it's good.

But it's not necessary for all. Shoot raw, adjust in PP - the rest can be trial and error & take lots of pictures (personally I take 3000 to 5000 per year). Tips on these forums have been very helpful to me.

One of the reasons I shoot raw is because I didn't want to go thru the academic aspects of "learning photography". I learned PP from my mistakes.

different strokes, but this has been a good thread & the OP got a good feel about what to do.

Rags



Jul 28, 2012 at 09:15 AM
jmcfadden
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p.2 #4 · Spot metering question, please clarify


Rags Hef wrote:
Jim I don't think you're concept of mastering the academic aspects of photography is a bad thing; it's good.

But it's not necessary for all. Shoot raw, adjust in PP - the rest can be trial and error & take lots of pictures (personally I take 3000 to 5000 per year). Tips on these forums have been very helpful to me.

One of the reasons I shoot raw is because I didn't want to go thru the academic aspects of "learning photography". I learned PP from my mistakes.

different strokes, but this has been a good thread & the OP got a
...Show more

it's all good, the OP was asking because he was confused as to what the whole process is
hence the little primer on stuff.

John



Jul 28, 2012 at 09:38 AM
Slug69
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p.2 #5 · Spot metering question, please clarify


I use spot meter function on my cameras to expose my subject correctly in tricky lighting.

I also use the spot meter function on my cameras to determine what settings the camera will use and whether the resulting shutter speed or aperture would be appropriate for what I was shooting.

Almost all the time I use a spot meter function I am in aperture priority or shutter priority mode so the camera determines the correct shutter speed or aperture respectively.

I have never had the need to use a grey card since I left film as you can work much quicker with digital to test and correct. Especially in changing lighting conditions.

Nikons metering has been outstanding for many years now. Especially when using their speedlights as well.



Jul 28, 2012 at 09:57 AM
James R
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p.2 #6 · Spot metering question, please clarify


I knew this thread would go beyond 1page. One thing is certain, when you get a good exposure, remember how you got it.


Jul 28, 2012 at 06:21 PM
Graystar
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p.2 #7 · Spot metering question, please clarify


The first thing to understand about exposure is that it is always set for the light source. Only a change in light should change your exposure. The color or tone of the objects being photographed do not have any role in setting exposure. This is why an Incident Light Meter works. An incident meter measures the light directly and gives you a shutter/aperture/ISO combination that works.

That said, it is a fact of life that our cameras have Reflective Light Meters, and are forced to make an exposure determination based on the light reflected from the objects in the scene. Now...something that is white can reflect 90% of the light that falls on it, while something that is black may reflect only 5% of the light that falls on it. This is why setting exposure using the camera meter isn't straight-forward. However, once you understand what's going on you'll see that it's not difficult...it just takes practice.

Here's how the camera meter works...the meter first makes a presumption that the world is gray. And not just any gray, but 12.7% gray (meaning, a surface that reflects 12.7% of the light that falls upon it.) If you want to see what 12.7% looks like then open a painting program on your computer, set your painting color to RGB 100, 100, 100, and fill the canvas with that color. That's the gray that the camera presumes the world looks like.

Having made this presumption, the camera will now set exposure so that the scene (or more accurately, the metered area) comes out gray. This happens regardless of the actual color of the objects in the scene. If you take a picture of a white wall, it comes out gray. If you take a picture of a black wall, it comes out gray. While this behavior may not make the reflective meter the most accurate meter, it at least makes it predictable, and that's what really matters. If we can predict the error in the meter reading, then we can compensate for that error, and achieve correct exposure. It's the knowledge of compensation that you must learn and practice.

If you meter an object that is a perfect 12.7% gray, then your meter reading has no error. This is what metering the sky is all about. It just so happens that the sky, about 45 degree up, has the same luminance as 12.7% gray (luminance refers to reflected light.) Your typical healthy green grass also has a luminance of about 12.7% gray, and can also be used to set exposure without error.

Other references can be used to set exposure. An 18% gray card can be used. Why 18%? Because there are no 12.7% cards. Why aren't there any 12.7% cards? I don't know. Anyways...an 18% card will cause you to underexpose slightly, and the instructions that comes with Kodak 18% gray cards say to increase your exposure by 1/2 stop. So when using an 18% gray card, your compensation is +1/2 stop (or +2/3 stop.) This is applied to the camera using your Exposure Compensation function.

If you're photographing a light-skinned person, then you can spot meter the skin, and set EC to +1. That will give you correct exposure. If you're photographing evergreen trees then you can meter the trees and set EC to -1. For snow, you can set EC to +2.3. For light sand at a beach, +2.

If you practice this skill, what will happen is that you'll develop a table of compensations based on your preferred subject matter. For example, for his landscape photography, photographer Jim Doty Jr. uses +1.5 for birch bark, +1 for yellow Aspen leaves, and -1.5 for a buffalo mane. So if you like taking pictures of red fire trucks then you will eventually develop a compensation value that lets you meter a fire truck and get correct exposure.

Now the metering mode can be addressed. When you're ready to take control of exposure, then Spot metering is the mode to use. Spot metering allows you to meter a small area, excluding the influence of the surrounding tones. So you can meter just a face, or just an evergreen, and compensate your exposure reliably. Center Weighted metering is an old metering mode, used in the Nikon F1 which was introduced in 1968. Its metering area is too large to be used effectively. Matrix metering is the "full-auto" of metering modes. Matrix meters a scene and then evaluates it to determine its own exposure compensation. It works well most of the time, but when it's wrong it's very unpredictable. If you don't really want to be bothered with compensating exposure to get it right, then Matrix is the mode to use.

Finally, Manual, aperture, shutter, program...these are shooting modes, and have nothing to do with setting exposure. You simply use the mode that is appropriate for you needs. Exposure is determined the same way, regardless of what shooting mode you use.

I carry around a white-balance reference that I use to set a custom white balance and to set exposure. It's not 12.7 or 18 percent gray, but that doesn't matter. As has been done for evergreens and aspen leaves, I simply determined that a compensation of +1.3 gives me correct exposure. So I'm able to use the one reference for both white balance and exposure. So anytime I step into new light I will whip out my WB reference from my back pocket, start the WB process, hold the card in front of my lens, angled to catch the light, and press the shutter to set a custom WB. If I'm in constant light conditions I'll also press AE-L and lock exposure. It takes about 7 seconds to set both. The card goes back into my back pocket and I'm all set.

Now...with all that said, please note that digital photography has brought with it alternative methods of setting exposure. There's Expose To The Right (ETTR); there's chimping the histogram (a method I refer to as exposure via trial & error); there's also the ISO-Less school of thought...all methods enabled by digital. So while the information above applies equally well to film cameras, a person using a digital camera might want to explore other methods. I personally use the film ways of setting exposure.



Jul 29, 2012 at 01:21 AM
clickmepp
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p.2 #8 · Spot metering question, please clarify


Nice detailed explanation on Spot Metering ....


Jul 29, 2012 at 06:19 AM
Rags Hef
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p.2 #9 · Spot metering question, please clarify


+1...


Jul 29, 2012 at 08:56 AM
John Skinner
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p.2 #10 · Spot metering question, please clarify


You don't really say in the original post what is being metered.

With that said, there are different techniques used with studio vs. out of doors. With and without flash...

And seeing as this thread has taken a weird tone to it, I won't even begin to chime in on my personal experiences on this subject other than to say...

One of the biggest proponents of metering (spot especially) that is working today is a fellow named Frank Doorhof. If you bookmark his page and look through his blog postings there, he goes through a lot of detail on the uses of the meter, both indoor and out.

Being a fashion shooter, all the bases are covered with emphasis placed on the inverse square law, and how that applies in everyday shooting.



Jul 29, 2012 at 10:14 AM
Graystar
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p.2 #11 · Spot metering question, please clarify


John Skinner wrote:
One of the biggest proponents of metering (spot especially) that is working today is a fellow named Frank Doorhof. If you bookmark his page and look through his blog postings there, he goes through a lot of detail on the uses of the meter, both indoor and out.


I just read a few of his blog posts. It basically proves that you don't need to have correct understanding of the details to take nice images.

RGB 128, 128, 128 is not 18% gray. In fact, RGB 128 doesn't relate to anything. 18% gray is actually sRGB 119, 119, 119. Also, cameras meter to 12.7% gray. This is very easy to check. Just spot meter an evenly lit white surface and shoot it at f/11 or so to minimize fall off. Now check the image using a RAW converter that has a neutral profile that doesn't apply any processing to the image. The RGB values will be around 100, and all your cameras will give the same results. All cameras work like this because that's what the ISO standards say. Sekonic states that their meters are calibrated to 12.5% gray, which is sRGB 99, 99, 99.

I don't understand this fixation with RGB 128. Some guy made a youtube video on how to calibrate a Sekonic to a Canon camera. He first adjusted the lights for a specific reading on the Sekonic, then set the Canon to those readings, and took a picture. His goal was to achieve RGB 128. You can see in his video that the first shot achieved RGB 100, which he said was underexposed. He then proceeded to change the calibration on the Sekonic until the readings from the Sekonic produced RGB 128 from the camera...resulting in a calibration difference of 0.8 EV. Finally, he proceeds to believe that Canon (CANON!) doesn't know how to calibrate light meters, and so produces meters that are off by nearly 1 EV. It's horrible. Here it is...



In fact, his first shot proved that his Sekonic and Canon were perfectly match...he just didn't know enough about the rendering of light levels to RGB to know it. So he proceeded to "calibrate" his Sekonic, thereby destroying a well matched system. As he discovered, RGB 128 is about 0.8 EV brighter than RGB 100...A good sized difference, but small enough to be disguised by all the automatic processing you get from JPEGs or default profiles on RAW converters. So I can see how people who push this idea can remain in the dark about it.

Finally, I hope that those reading this do realize that I'm rambling on about a technical detail that represents a tiny aspect of the entire photographic process, and is not a condemnation of Frank Doorhof. He certainly takes better photographs than I ever will. The inquisitor in me, however, always wonders whether a person is successful because of what he does, or in spite of what he does. I think this is one of those cases where he’s successful in spite of his misunderstanding of the RGB values (which may also simply indicate how unimportant it really is.)



Jul 29, 2012 at 11:26 AM
rhyder
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p.2 #12 · Spot metering question, please clarify


Graystar wrote:
I just read a few of his blog posts. It basically proves that you don't need to have correct understanding of the details to take nice images.

RGB 128, 128, 128 is not 18% gray. In fact, RGB 128 doesn't relate to anything. 18% gray is actually sRGB 119, 119, 119. Also, cameras meter to 12.7% gray. This is very easy to check. Just spot meter an evenly lit white surface and shoot it at f/11 or so to minimize fall off. Now check the image using a RAW converter that has a neutral profile that doesn't apply any processing to
...Show more

"It basically proves that you don't need to have correct understanding of the details to take nice images."

I agree. I'm amazed at the misinformation out there on the internet. It seems to growing as more and more people rely on it for their information.

I think the RGB 128 thing is due to the use of the term "middle gray". What I learned was "18% reflectance", which some referred to as "18% gray", which some then referred to as "80% gray". Many called these cards "middle gray cards". Now we are seeing some one assuming that RGB 128 (middle gray on Adobe's color picker) is the same color value as the "middle gray" card.

This is the type of thing that can happen when people use the internet for their sole source of information.



Jul 30, 2012 at 07:58 AM
lycale
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p.2 #13 · Spot metering question, please clarify


I want to thank all of you for taking the time and making the effort to respond--some with very detailed responses. I really appreciate it!


Jul 30, 2012 at 06:04 PM
jzucker
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p.2 #14 · Spot metering question, please clarify


I think frank's work speaks for itself. He's not just some random guy posting on dpreview or here...


Sep 01, 2012 at 08:34 AM
Graystar
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p.2 #15 · Spot metering question, please clarify


jzucker wrote:
I think frank's work speaks for itself. He's not just some random guy posting on dpreview or here...


Geocentrism was able to accurately determine the future position of the stars, planets, and even comets...all based on the Earth being the center of the universe. Obviously, it is not always necessary to have the correct process to get the correct result.

Frank Doorhof has devised a calibration process that produces an exposure, and he works with that exposure. This can be done with any exposure level. As I said...he takes better photographs than I ever will. But like the geocentrists...his understanding is off.



Sep 01, 2012 at 10:00 AM
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