p.3 #1 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
I don't know, given that there isn't going to be all that much difference in size between many of the EF-M and EF-S lenses, I think I would still prefer the Nikon 1 to the EOS-M. It pairs up better with a larger system. If you were going to have just one system, the Canon makes more sense though (if the AF is not as slow as it looks in that movie).
p.3 #2 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
Oh, maybe I have my wires crossed or something. Isn't the Nikon 1 the one with the tiny 13.2mm x 8.8 mm sensor? I dunno about others but 18 x 13.5 mm is as small as I'm willing to go - I think. Actually even that is too small. If there's a half-sized sensor for the same price (actually cheaper now) than a one third sized sensor then how on Earth does a 1/3 sized sensor make any sense at all? <shrug>
Had the Sony been available when I bought into the MFT system I almost surely would have gone for that. I mean I hate Sony and all but there's not much difference between them and Panasonic IMHO. Equal evils I guess. But they weren't available till 8 months or a year later - after I bought 14 different adapters and etc....
p.3 #3 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
Well, it makes nice shots in the daytime, so given that I am not about to get rid of my FF system, it makes a nice companion. Anyway, I have decided for MFT for now, but the ability to AF with my Nikon lenses is interesting. An EF-M companion to an EF FF system makes much less sense to me. Too close to the same thing. The lenses are too big.
p.3 #5 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
Bifurcator wrote:
Weren't they far behind and way out in left field at launch time? I thought they were at least. I guess some people bought that camera but I can't imagine anyone doing so - on purpose I mean - at release, now, nor in the future. <shrug>
Apparently Nikon 1 was financially very successful for Nikon and helped them carry through when their DSLR sales were affected by floods etc. It is a system unquestionably aimed at people going up from P&S cameras and looks like they marketed it well enough to get the attention of that segment. I suspect they might have other plans up their sleeves for the more advanced segment of mirror-less market.
p.3 #6 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
Isn't the real question, when will we get mirrorless medium for at? ;-)
I'm in no rush, but I too hope for some suggestions of such a system over the next 12 months. I'm committed to my a-mount system, but would also like to add something smaller, one day, eventually. At the moment that would have to be some sort of Leica set up, so I best get saving...
p.3 #7 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
carstenw wrote:
Well, it makes nice shots in the daytime, so given that I am not about to get rid of my FF system, it makes a nice companion. Anyway, I have decided for MFT for now, but the ability to AF with my Nikon lenses is interesting. An EF-M companion to an EF FF system makes much less sense to me. Too close to the same thing. The lenses are too big.
The EF-M 22mm f2 is about the same size as Nikon 1 10mm 2.8 I don't know what was Nikon thinking in releasing an f2.8 prime for a 2.7x crop camera when others have delivered faster lenses in the same size for larger formats (Pan 20mm 1.7, Samsung 20mm f2, and now EF-M 22mm f2). But I agree about the zooms. APS-C zooms are just too big for mirrorless cameras.
p.3 #8 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
Bifurcator wrote:
Weren't they far behind and way out in left field at launch time? I thought they were at least. I guess some people bought that camera but I can't imagine anyone doing so - on purpose I mean - at release, now, nor in the future. <shrug>
You're right Bif. Nikon 1 was doomed at launch, but being Nikon, with all the fan boys out there, and with Canon not even in the game yet, they managed to trick some customers, and sell a few cameras. Now, seeing that Canon dared to go with APS-C, the game has changed, and Nikon needs a new plan. The Canon M is actually a useful product as opposed to the toy camera from Nikon.
p.3 #9 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
Surely you must be jesting? Or maybe I don't really know anything about what is working in the market. In that case, the EF-M will be a huge success and a FF mirrorless is doomed to fail...
curious80 wrote:
Apparently Nikon 1 was financially very successful for Nikon and helped them carry through when their DSLR sales were affected by floods etc. It is a system unquestionably aimed at people going up from P&S cameras and looks like they marketed it well enough to get the attention of that segment. I suspect they might have other plans up their sleeves for the more advanced segment of mirror-less market.
p.3 #10 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
Here is a quote from Nikon's financial report for the fiscal year ending in March 2012:
SLR camera operations were severely affected by Thai floods: but, brisk sales of “Nikon 1” helped sales of "digital camera ―interchangeable lens type" to rise 10% from last year
aleksanderpolo wrote:
Surely you must be jesting? Or maybe I don't really know anything about what is working in the market. In that case, the EF-M will be a huge success and a FF mirrorless is doomed to fail...
p.3 #12 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
briantho wrote:
I'm curious, doesn't the launch of the Canon M mean that Nikon will have to rethink their mirrorless offerings? Won't Nikon be left far behind all competition as it currently stands?
Bifurcator wrote:
Weren't they far behind and way out in left field at launch time? I thought they were at least. I guess some people bought that camera but I can't imagine anyone doing so - on purpose I mean - at release, now, nor in the future. <shrug>
curious80 wrote:
Apparently Nikon 1 was financially very successful for Nikon and helped them carry through when their DSLR sales were affected by floods etc. It is a system unquestionably aimed at people going up from P&S cameras and looks like they marketed it well enough to get the attention of that segment. I suspect they might have other plans up their sleeves for the more advanced segment of mirror-less market.
aleksanderpolo wrote:
Surely you must be jesting? Or maybe I don't really know anything about what is working in the market. In that case, the EF-M will be a huge success and a FF mirrorless is doomed to fail...
Well, the camera shop I frequent for used lenses most only devotes cabinet space to systems that sell well. The Nikon 1 case is about 4 times the size as the Fuji - which is actually stuck in with Ricoh. It's about 1/2 size from what both Oly and Pana occupy together. I imagine the itty-bitty size appeals to women and the too-hip iPad crowd fairly well. I was just thinking that almost no one here (at FM and the likes) would be considering them with much seriousness. I mean, there's not even a sub-forum here for compacts after-all. (I'm glad too! ).
In Japan from what I can gather, it would seem that both the µ4/3 systems as well as the Nikon 1 systems are outselling Sony, Fuji, and Ricoh by a fairly huge margin - maybe 3 or 4 to 1 (each?).
p.3 #13 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
aleksanderpolo wrote:
Surely you must be jesting? Or maybe I don't really know anything about what is working in the market. In that case, the EF-M will be a huge success and a FF mirrorless is doomed to fail...
i'm afraid you are probably right on all counts with this last post. FF mirrorless is doomed to be a niche market if it ever becomes a market at all. the best it could hope to be is halo product that gets consumers to buy the cheaper smaller sensored mirrorless cameras from the same manufacturer.
the canon will probably do reasonably well as the nikon 1 has. i've had more people who know nothing about cameras ask me about the nikon 1 than anything other camera ever. these people had no awareness of µ4/3, NEX, or samsung NX. nikon marketing must be working. as far as actual cameras i've seen in hands of the numerous tourists that swarm through san francisco, it's p&s > dslr> µ4/3 > NEX >>>> NX. with a rapid increase in the percentage of NEXs in the last 6 months.
p.3 #14 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
I think this involves baby steps. I mean FF cameras in general have been static as far as initial price points. Its interesting that Sony had to attempt to be the disruptive force but nothing really came from that. Now that Mirrorless and Cameraphones have ate away at the bottom end and mid-range we're gonna see new FF bodies break the $2K barrier. I feel that from this a new battleground will be created where a FF mirrorless could make an appearance. It'll take a disruptive force though, like Ricoh
p.3 #15 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
sebboh wrote:
i'm afraid you are probably right on all counts with this last post. FF mirrorless is doomed to be a niche market if it ever becomes a market at all. the best it could hope to be is halo product that gets consumers to buy the cheaper smaller sensored mirrorless cameras from the same manufacturer.
the canon will probably do reasonably well as the nikon 1 has. i've had more people who know nothing about cameras ask me about the nikon 1 than anything other camera ever. these people had no awareness of µ4/3, NEX, or samsung NX. nikon marketing must be working. as far as actual cameras i've seen in hands of the numerous tourists that swarm through san francisco, it's p&s > dslr> µ4/3 > NEX >>>> NX. with a rapid increase in the percentage of NEXs in the last 6 months....Show more →
Yes. I was talking to someone recently who wanted to buy a NEX-5 for taking pictures at her daughter's school gathering etc. They already have a D90 in the house, but they don't use it because in her words "its too big and its too expensive to carry around everywhere like that". And I wouldn't blame her either. These users are not hobbyist photographers - they just want something which has better quality then their point and shoot for their everyday shots. If you tell them that here is a camera which has much larger sensor than their P&S and it is much smaller than a DSLR in size, they would buy it. They don't know all the technical details about f stops and depth of field and probably just have a passing notion of high ISO, and that's it.
p.3 #16 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
briantho wrote:
You're right Bif. Nikon 1 was doomed at launch, but being Nikon, with all the fan boys out there, and with Canon not even in the game yet, they managed to trick some customers, and sell a few cameras. Now, seeing that Canon dared to go with APS-C, the game has changed, and Nikon needs a new plan. The Canon M is actually a useful product as opposed to the toy camera from Nikon.
The Nikon 1's done poorly with enthusiasts, but did very well in Asia and most notably in Japan, which is the market it was designed for. I don't think it sold very well outside of Asia though and everything I've read indicates that it is wildly outsold by m43 and NEX in pretty much every market. It also had the advantage of excellent availability, any serious camera store is going to stock Nikon (the EF-M will also benefit from this). But I suspect Nikon's in a bit of a pinch now with the EF-M introduction, since larger sensors are pretty much standard now with so much buy-in on APS-C for Mirrorless.
The EF-M looks promising to me and Canon picked a better pair of launch lenses than Sony, who should have launched a 24-30/2 pancake instead of the 16. But only time will tell if Canon is going to get aggressive with the EF-M lenses or if they'll neglect the lineup the same way they've been neglecting the anemic EF-S line for the last 8 years. Canon's also put Sony in a bind, Sony needs to get aggressive on lens introductions if they want to maintain momentum. For now they have a window as the EF-M compares well with the cheaper NEX-F3, the 5N and 7 clearly out-spec it and you can get the 5N for EF-M money.
p.3 #17 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
mawz wrote:
The Nikon 1's done poorly with enthusiasts, but did very well in Asia and most notably in Japan, which is the market it was designed for. I don't think it sold very well outside of Asia though and everything I've read indicates that it is wildly outsold by m43 and NEX in pretty much every market. It also had the advantage of excellent availability, any serious camera store is going to stock Nikon (the EF-M will also benefit from this). But I suspect Nikon's in a bit of a pinch now with the EF-M introduction, since larger sensors are pretty much standard now with so much buy-in on APS-C for Mirrorless. ...Show more →
I was checking the prices of the Nikon 1 cameras on ebay, and you can get a V1 with 10-30 lens for $10 more then a Canon s100 though the HK ebay sellers!
p.3 #18 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
I just think that the market for a professional, fullframe, weather sealed, ergonomically nice, hybrid optical/electrical viewfinder camera with electronics on stereoids and a nice feature set is small.
BUT! .. here is the huge but: the market for a nikon d3x isn't necessarily very large either now, is it? The brand value Leica added by being _the_ war photographer/press photographer/street photographer camera for years can't be discounted completely. I think that the company that releases a professional, fullframe, quality small-form-factor camera, with a set of 18-28-35-50-85-135 lenses, gets them into the hands of a handful of famous street photographers, war photographers or/and concert photographers before launch, will get a lot of good pr, i think that could trickle down onto the "consumer" lineup.
But do I think that it will happen? I'm doubting more and more
p.3 #20 · There goes the hope for a mirrorless FF...
ulrikft2 wrote:
The brand value Leica added by being _the_ war photographer/press photographer/street photographer camera for years can't be discounted completely.
I don't think that is the case though. When the Nikon F came out, it pretty much took over that role, certainly for war photography and journalism in general. For more casual street and portrait photography, maybe not, although I wouldn't be surprised if it also dominated there.
I don't know what was Nikon thinking in releasing an f2.8 prime for a 2.7x crop camera when others have delivered faster lenses in the same size for larger formats (Pan 20mm 1.7, Samsung 20mm f2, and now EF-M 22mm f2). But I agree about the zooms. APS-C zooms are just too big for mirrorless cameras.
).