It really seems like you'd be better equipped, more flexible, and spend less money going with some combination of Einsteins and older manual speedlights (check out the Nikon SB-80dx, for example). Unless there's some fancy feature that the 600EX-RT offers that you feel you need, at $600/each they offer a pretty piss-poor power/cost ratio. I bet that one of them pumps out less than half a stop more than my $125 SB-80dx. And for a hundred bucks *less* than the 600EX-RT, you can have an Einstein that will give you a whole mess more power.
Thanks for your constructive post, Swoop. I appreciate it very much. It helps a great deal. And it really means a lot coming from someone who owns a Leica M9 and hides behind a screen name and doesn't have a link to his or her own work.
I don't have more money than experience. But in order to make good photographs one still needs good gear, if for no other reason to learn with. I can't master artificial lighting by miming it.
If you read all of my posts above I think you would see I already said I wanted the ability to travel light, and what I did not already confess is that I like the idea of being able to manipulate my flash system from the back of my Canon 5D Mark III. I also came here looking for advice, but instead of sounding dumb and blindly asking what type of system the people here would recommend, I did some homework and came up with with I thought would be the best system for me. You are free to disagree; I need constructive criticism from others if I'm going to make the best decision.
As for a light meter, I already have one, which I use for video work. And frankly, I have been shooting with two Canon 580EX Speedlites for the better part of three years already, but I am far from an accomplished strobist, and so far the light meter on my camera more often than not does the job just fine.
Now you can go back to being a sniveling smart a**.
I'll second Chris' comment on possibly picking up older manual speedlights. I'm a nikon guy so my current setup consists of x3 Nikon SB-25 (Paid $200 for all three), Photoflex 60" Umbrellas and CyberSync triggers.
I often use two of the speedlights with a dual flash bracket in one umbrella, but I also have a tri-bracket if I need all three for battling the daylight.
I sometime feel that the automatic exposure systems on newer speedlights isn't all it's cracked up to be and if you're shooting portraiture, I'm sure metering or taking a test shot wouldn't slow you down much at all.
Here's my site, all the work on it was shot with speedlights and umbrellas!
Todd Klassy wrote:
I have plenty of experience shooting with natural light. I have been published many times. What I want (née need) to add to my repertoire is the ability to do environmental portraiture on location (mostly outdoors), often in bad light.
I also need to be able to pack light. My thought was that a Canon 600EX-RT / ST-E3-RT system would better enable me to be mobile and allow me to be more creative. Also, many times I won't have the use an assistant, so some of that goes into planning my lighting kit.
It's not about what you have it's about how you use it, and what screams lack of experience is all the unnecessary stuff. "color filter kit" All you really need is an orange and green, and really only orange if you're going to be working outdoors during sunrise/sunset.
You say you want to pack light but all that equipment is not light at all. And a 7' umbrella doesn't pack small. It's a chore to carry. and for some reason you want silver and white. And a 7' umbrella is useless with a shoe mount flash, you kind of reach the limit of the light coverage of the flash with a 45" umbrella. Then you're carrying 3 light stands, and all that other stuff. Why not just go with lumedyne or quantum kit, it's not going to weigh much more, and will take you about as long to set up. And that's the other thing, the time it takes to set this stuff up is forever when it's someone elses time. People don't like to wait around, and it's going to take just as long to pack it all up.
And using a 600EX in a 3 light setup is a bit pointless, you're going to be adjusting the light ratios yourself anyway, all the automation offered by the 600EX is going to be a hindrance. Even if it lets you change it up in camera, which I think is the selling point, it's easier to just walk over to the flash, change it, and walk back than to dig through menu settings and buttons. And no one uses flash by turning them all on at the same time, you're going to have to walk over to each one to turn it on, see it's effect, and then go over to the next one.
I'm an available light guy and the way I use flash is to meter the ambient and use that as fill and add flash about 1-2 stops above that to use as main. It adds light but still makes for a very natural looking image. And all that requires is 1 light. I have a 3 light setup and I've only ever used all 3 lights once. Most of the time if I use flash, which is rare, it's just 1 light, maybe 2 if it's darker to do what I said before, 1 light is fill, the other is main. I'm not a fashion or headshot photographer, backlight, hair light, rim light, all that are style options that I really don't care for or even have the time to implement when I'm on assignment.
Todd Klassy wrote:
Thanks for your constructive post, Swoop. I appreciate it very much. It helps a great deal. And it really means a lot coming from someone who owns a Leica M9 and hides behind a screen name and doesn't have a link to his or her own work.
What's wrong with using a Leica?
www.ken-m.com
Todd Klassy wrote:
If you read all of my posts above I think you would see I already said I wanted the ability to travel light, and what I did not already confess is that I like the idea of being able to manipulate my flash system from the back of my Canon 5D Mark III. I also came here looking for advice, but instead of sounding dumb and blindly asking what type of system the people here would recommend, I did some homework and came up with with I thought would be the best system for me. You are free to disagree; I need constructive criticism from others if I'm going to make the best decision....Show more →
All that equipment is heavy and bulky. And you're getting more than one of somethings you really don't need. But it's your money, I wouldn't let anyone tell me what to do with it, and I'm not about to tell you, but a lot of that equipment is very unnecessary. And you just said that you're looking for advice, well people are giving it to you saying it's pointless but you're dead set on those 600EX's. And controlling that light from the back of your camera sounds great in theory but I'm sure it'll prove frustrating in practice.
Todd Klassy wrote:
I have been shooting with two Canon 580EX Speedlites for the better part of three years already, but I am far from an accomplished strobist, and so far the light meter on my camera more often than not does the job just fine.
If you have 2 580EX's why not just get a 3rd? Why not just get some wireless triggers? Why not just buy some lightstands and umbrellas and a softbox and be done with it and learn with that? There is nothing you can't accomplish with a 3 580EX's that you can do with 3 600EX's and all that fabric. You just need to know how to use it. You're better off taking some sort of workshop than buying more lights that by your own admission you don't know how to use.
A LOT of GREAT advice here. Don't waste your money. The kit you came up with is not small in terms of actual travel to locations and setups.
I have 4 Canon 550EX flashes that I use with PocketWizard ControlTL system. However, I also purchased a used AlienBee 1600 with mini, and AC9 to control it. With this I have a few 60" umbrellas, 60" folding octabox, 24x24 grided softbox, and heavy and lightweight stands. I don't like carrying all of this gear. I take what I need depending on the shoot. The 550EX flashes can do their thing when needed and the AB can do it's thing when I need more power. They are different but both are portable and I can control it all remotely from camera. Not to mention it cost a lot less than you are willing to spend. I bet our results can be quite the same but you are spending loads of money and will have a little more gear.
I used to have 5 580EX, now only 3. And ever since I moved to head/pack with battery system, I hardly use the hot shot flashes. They still have their use, but I like larger modifiers like an octabox so the head/pack works great. I love shooting at low ISO. There's no doubt one can utilize 6 hotshoe flashes, say you put them as a pair with modifier, it's still a lot of work to set up and run around, even though the ST-E3 helps a lot.
And that's the other thing, the time it takes to set this stuff up is forever when it's someone elses time. People don't like to wait around, and it's going to take just as long to pack it all up.
I do portraits for professionals like doctors and company executives, I can testify to that. A lot of times I found myself over bringing equipment to the field. More flashes/stands->more sandbags->turn yourself into a mule!
By the time you haul stands, your 7' modifers, 50 pounds of sand to hold them in place, etc. the extra weight of battery/inverter studio monolight vs. speedlight is insignificant and the logisitics of hauling and setting up similar. But in terms of power and performance there's no comparison. That's not to say it can't be done with speedlights, but there's no advantage in cost or logistics for complex location portraits. especially outdoors where the lack of speedlight power is a handicap.
Speedlights are designed for and best suited for situations where light weight and portability trump other factors, situations like candids at a wedding reception where a flash on a bracket and one off camera on a stand can handle most tasks.
I find the approach that works best for me is to have both. I have a set of four studio lights and variety of modifiers and a pair of speedlights. That allows me a choice of tools based on task and how much gear I want to drag out on location. I don't shoot for hire so I'm not motivated to drag the studio lights out of the house very often, but would if I was shooting for hire and the job required it. For example if still shooting weddings I'd use monolights for the posed portraits and groups for lighting quality and power respectively, then pack them and switch to speedlights to cover the reception and other candid moments.
You don't need to buy everything at once. Often it's better to buy the minimum of what you think will work then learn what it can do to guide future decisions. For example if you buy 7' modifers and speedlights you might find the power of the speedlights doesn't take max. advantage of the modifier. If instead you started with speedights and 48" umbrella and discovered the power limiting performance that way, you'd realize a monolight to be a better choice when considering an even bigger modifier.
I'd suggest using about 1/2 the budget to buy a pair of speedlights and 1-2 monolights, and few medium sized modifiers you can use with both. See how that works, then buy the rest based on that experience. .
I support your decision on controlling flash power from your camera. It makes Manual flash settings so much more convenient, especially if like me, you have any westcott apollo boxes! I went with Odin triggers since I already had 2x430 ex ii and one 580 ex ii.
I have much the same equipment (just not as new) as you're considering, and like others who have commented here, it's not a lightweight proposition to get it to the assignment. I use a big Pelican case that weighs about 60 lbs. with just the speedlites, batteries, chargers, radio triggers, and other supporting accessories. Add to that the C stands, bags, softboxes, parabolics, etc., that don't fit in a Pelican case and it's just not optimal from my experience to cart it, set it up, dial it in, and then make your portraits, unless you're Joe McNally with a busload of assistants (read jealousy here). Instead, I find myself using my Quantum T5DR and one or two speedlites, and smaller mods and stands (where wind isn't a consideration).
If I were starting over, I'd probably add a set of Elinchrom Quadras, as I really like the results of the Eli modifiers.
Having said that, if you're set on the gear list you've posted here, the only thing I think I missed seeing is a set of grids and snoots for your speedlites. I have Honl and RPS and both are good.
Thanks for everyone's input. It was quite valuable. Made me reconsider what I was doing. After a week of further research I decided to purchase the Elinchrom EL102901 Ranger Quadra RX Kit. We'll see how that goes. I can still see myself complimenting that kit with some Speedlites, but I think it will work well for what I have planned, especially now that Elinchrom has announced a new Li-Ion batter for this unit.
My kit arrives tomorrow. Will be dialing everything in over the weekend. The following weekend I will be photographing native Americans at a shoot in Montana and then the following week I'm in Yellowstone. It's a steep learning curve, and I will share the results. But I make no promises.
@Todd, the Parabolic umbrellas are almost a complete waste with speedlights. They are simply not powerful enough to get effective use out of them. And when you add more than one speedlight you are in essence killing what the parabolic is supposed to do which is have a focal point. Although technically those PLM aren't true parabolics anyway but it's still too little power for such a big modifier.
If you see yourself using parabolics then go for the Einsteins (not the AB) and the vagabond mini. Spending all this money on a speedlight kit is absolutely crazy to me, but hey it's your money.
Also, I would also look into buying the Rogue Flashbenders over the Honl gear. I've had both and I'm madly in love with the Flashbenders...much more versatile.
The Flashpoint 6" beauty dish...that's pretty useless if you ask me.
And dare I say, but I would rather buy the Phottix version of the Apollo Orb, no sense in spending the extra cash for no reason. I just got mine in and I can honestly tell you that I'm switching completely. They also market one that is similar to their Apollo 28" softbox. You can buy two for the price of one.
Also, if you're using all of these modifiers, I wouldn't be too worried about TTL anyway (I personally can not stand it) and can honestly say that my brain is much more efficient at knowing what I want than the camera/flash does.
unknown_photog wrote:
@Todd, the Parabolic umbrellas are almost a complete waste with speedlights. They are simply not powerful enough to get effective use out of them.... wouldn't be too worried about TTL ...
That's just my humble .02
FYI, advice was heeded.
Todd Klassy (OP) wrote:
Thanks for everyone's input. It was quite valuable. Made me reconsider what I was doing. After a week of further research I decided to purchase the Elinchrom EL102901 Ranger Quadra RX Kit. We'll see how that goes. I can still see myself complimenting that kit with some Speedlites, but I think it will work well for what I have planned, especially now that Elinchrom has announced a new Li-Ion batter for this unit.
Well, after some guidance from people on this thread, I changed my original purchase plans for my first portable strobist kit. Instead of going the Speedlite route, I instead purchased this:
Elinchrom EL102911 Ranger Quadra RX (S) Kit
Elinchrom EL26184 53" Rotalux Junior Octabox
Elinchrom EL26178 27x27 Rotalux Square Softbox
Elinchrom EL26339 Quadra Reflector Adapters (2)
Elinchrom EL26144 7.1" Grid Reflector (2)
Elinchrom EL26117 27x27 Rotalux Rotagrid
Elinchrom ELMFCRQ Multifunction Cap
Elinchrom EL11093 Car Battery Charger
Manfrotto 420NSB Black Combi-Boom Stand
Manfrotto 1051BAC Air Cushioned Compact Stand
Manfrotto 026 Swivel Umbrella Adapter (2)
Shur-Line Easy Reach Pole Model 06572
Kacey Pole Adapter
I'm keeping my two Canon 580EX flashes, and Phase II is still in the works while I work out the bugs with my Phase I purchase. For example, I'm still trying to determine if the range of the Skyport transmitter will suit my needs or not. However, the tentative plans for Phase II include:
Elinchrom EL19347 ELS Universal Receivers (2)
Elinchrom EL11004 5m RQ Cable for Quadra
Manfrotto 1051BAC Mini Compact Stand (1)
Manfrotto 035 Super Clamp (2)
Giottos Standard Large Sandbag (2)
Miscellaneous Filter Supplies
Elinchrom Li-Ion Batteries w/Charger (2)
Elinchrom EL11037 Lithium-Ion Car Charger
I conducted my first shoot this weekend in Yellowstone National Park for a client using the equipment purchased in Phase I above and here are some of the early results:
