one thing to keep in mind is that majority of the population here on FM are non-wedding hobbyists, non-wedding pros, wedding noobs (like myself) who are inspired by the pros in this wedding forum. i'm sure i've said some posts were "amazing!" (like Ari's Hoffer-goodness) but to me it was just that.
I do agree that critique to include areas to improve on would be helpful for anyone. I posted a few photos with minimal response, so I assume that they're just OK & not worth commenting on; not bad, but not "amazing". That alone lets me know that I need to get better, but it would be nice to get some C&C to lead me in that direction. But I do understand it does take a long time to give good feedback (doesn't have to be cgardner or a Steady status) so for that reason I don't expect it.
This post was not inspired by any one particular post. As some of you pointed out, just use the search engine with any superlative. Its something I've been thinking about for a while.
I've been an active member the forums for less than a year, but I've also skimmed through dozens of threads from the last five or six years. I've seen several old threads where folks would rip into each other based on things like perspective distortion or even the subjects of the weddings themselves, and I don't really miss those kinds of threads.
I agree with kitty's POV that unless folks are actually looking for critiques (which they tend to state in the OP), it's not my place to provide them. If I like what I see, I note it. If I don't, I move on. And I disagree with the argument that it's part of our society, that we don't have thick skin, etc. I'm a teacher, and the idea that schools propagate an "everyone's a winner" ideal simply isn't true...and neither is the idea that the solution is to start being Tough and Real with kids. But this is a discussion for another day, as I could go on about it for hours.
I posted that PARAPHRASE (I didn't go actually look for the email... [isn't it cool that I can type fast enough that it doesn't make sense to go fish out a 400 word email? ] of my IMHO incredibly positive critique of a second shooter.
One or two people here posted saying it was a good email. I also got a couple of PMs from peeps who said (and I paraphrase) that people have too thin skin and prefer to be carried like teacup puppies rather than learn something.
BUT THEN... I had two exchanges... one in PM and one on Facebook where both posters indicated the same exact section of my email as being most likely the source of the issue and explained to me why what I wrote could be misread (ok, why I miswrote actually) ... the bit they both pointed to was the one concerning the JPG files... to varying degrees both felt that essentially I could come across as condescending and belittling in my suggestion to analize the failure and figure out what went wrong to prevent it in the future. One specifically said that my words evoked Mom saying "go to your room and think about what you did"
Now I paraphrased my reconstruction of the email so I'm not sure how closely my paraphrase tracks to the original but I have no doubt those two NAILED IT.
Which leads me to the interesting point...
THE LAST THING I WAS TRYING TO DO was make the 2nd feel bad about the JPG... as I wrote the files were fine, so it was a non-issue... and in fact my suggestion to study the cause was my "day-job-inspired-drive-to-accept-mistakes-as-the-building-blocks-of-experience" and was actually intended to come across as "don't sweat it bro(ette?) no biggie, awesome learning opportunity to see if there's something about how you're hanging the camera, or some setting you may have missed, that is causing the camera to revert to JPG.
Which ties in with what Usagani said about feeling like a fool for using the word Cheesy.. whcih in the great scheme of things isn't exactly a big negative.
Conclusion - it's freakin' hard to decide what to critique, what not to critique...
why didn't these two posters address their concerns with my email in the thread and address it privately instead? Were they trying to shield me, or themselves?
Interesting stuff.
Thanks to both of you, you know who you are for giving me your INCREDIBLY VALUABLE INSIGHT...
oh yeah... and condescending moment: the takeaway lesson mentioned by one of them is that I should have done what I did in a phone call where my tone of voice would most likely have avoided any hurt feelings. Now I'm at a loss as to how to approach the situation... don't want to "stir it up" but at the same time I'd really like to work with them in the future and want to make sure that we're good.
Alessandro, I actually had quoted you on that exact thing - I would recommend not telling anyone of their "failures" and to think about what they did. Your email came off as very corporate and knowing your background, very PM-like.
I would have said something along the lines of, "Oh, yeah, that's happened to me before. Now I just [fill in what you would do to prevent that from happening again in the future]."
Ah hell, Ale. Didn't mean it condescendingly at all! It's just written word and open to interpretation, which is the whole point of this thread whether it's "fantastic!" or "pure crap!".
Was going to post here, but didn't want to go OT.
---------------------------------------------
Hi Ale,
Just a possible viewpoint here...
lisy78 wrote:
With regards to the JPG images don't worry, they were all salvageable, If you haven't already, I would suggest you think about what happened to make sure you understand where the failure was, so you can avoid it happening to you in the future... I've learned a LOT from deconstructing problems I've had during an event.
The one observation I would like to make is that I personally don't necessarily go for the intentionally titled look across a lot of images and I couldn't help but notice that it was pretty prevalent in some of the speeches and other reception photos. You framed the images wide enough that I had absolutely no problem using the imgaes, I cropped them in a little and untilted them.. so no worries, but I thought you might like to know about this stylistic preference for next time I ask you to shoot with me.
Thanks again for a fantastic job awesomely done, I look forward to working with you again.
Ciao!
Alessandro"
I dunno but that sounds pretty reasonable to me.
I've totally gotten the cold shoulder from that photographer since sending the email.
Personally I would have been THRILLED to get a similar email... but obviously we're not all the same....Show more →
That was pretty wordy for two basically non-issues, since each was resolved. (yeah, I get they were both probably time consuming and a bother, but it comes across a bit heavy handed)
"If you haven't already, I would suggest you think about what happened to make sure you understand where the failure was, so you can avoid it happening to you in the future..."
You think he hasn't already done this? There are no inflections or tone to the written word. This phrase could be read quite sternly. Some people have to pound their point in when one already knows they've screwed up. Most likely not what you meant, but could be taken that way.
Asking him to straighten the tilted shots in post would have efficiently fixed the problem, and he'd be aware of your preference. Less work for you and he'd remember that for the next time.
Just my take on it. If a bride told me all the things she like about my work, then went on to berate me for what she didn't like, what part of that do you think I'm going to be hearing and remembering?
Some things are so much easier on the phone. "I'd really like working with you again... would you take notes for me on a couple things I'd like to have done for the next shoot?" Hit him with what to improve on, then note the things he did right.
Allesandro, sometimes you surprise me by the degree of rationalism you display
A few people mentioned negative comments. I don't think that's what Chuck is talking about. A simple this is what I like, this is what I may have/think should be changed/enhanced etc. goes very far.
A main issue (as Kitty said) is that a real critique is very time consuming, and while I'd love to get some, it's hard to expect. Once in a while I'll actually go through someones post and critique. Another issue is that many here (like me) feel that our opinion isn't nearly as polished or experienced as the better/more experienced photographers.
MirrorM, solid, mediocre work doesn't get much attention (I know from experience ), take that itself as a critique...
No no no... LINDA... I meant I would now be condescending to the board by telling them how it's done ha ha ha
I realize that that would by implication indicatet hat I may have felt that you were being condescending to me... but I totally didn't ... wow... that makes absolutely no sense, now does it?
Either way I totally didn't take it in a condescending way and was just trying to be a smartass to the board with that ending paragraph
zalmyb wrote:
Allesandro, sometimes you surprise me by the degree of rationalism you display
A few people mentioned negative comments. I don't think that's what Chuck is talking about. A simple this is what I like, this is what I may have/think should be changed/enhanced etc. goes very far.
A main issue (as Kitty said) is that a real critique is very time consuming, and while I'd love to get some, it's hard to expect. Once in a while I'll actually go through someones post and critique. Another issue is that many here (like me) feel that our opinion isn't nearly as polished or experienced as the better/more experienced photographers.
MirrorM, solid, mediocre work doesn't get much attention (I know from experience ), take that itself as a critique......Show more →
Agreed. Except for the part about Ale -- I often enjoy his rationalism around here and look forward to it.
My favorite part about this thread? Robin's cheesy comment. I thought it was spot on and not in a bad way. The OP didn't even take offense to it, but it rubbed someone else wrong.
And from other fairly recent threads, the funny thing is getting harsh critique from someone who's idea of good photography is light years away from your own. It's an open forum and that's a good thing. I'm all for good critique, but you also need to swim like a duck. (fast and furious under the water, calm and cool above, and let the water slide right off your back...)
zalmyb wrote:
Allesandro, sometimes you surprise me by the degree of rationalism you display
Huh!?!?! Why are you surprised?
Haven't you read the studies linking rationalism and lucidity to low levels of exposure to sulfenic acids in general and 1-propenesulfenic acids in particular?
We may not pay too much attention to High Fructose Corn Syrup or partially Hydrogenated oils but we have a zero tolerance for foodstuffs containing those poisonous acids. Hence my incredible brilliance.
As to the question that is going through your mind right now... the answer is "yes, of course" :P
I use to offer constructive criticism before, but I quickly realized that A) not everyone really wants them, and B) I personally don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to offer real critique. Through my experience and knowledge, I can point out things and be helpful, but again, I'm no expert. Now a days, I barely have enough time to browse around and leave comments. If I stumble upon a good thread and see some photos I like (especially from friends), I will let them know that I like them. It might not be a critique, but I believe a recognition for good work or a great shot should still be acknowledged.
Haven't you read the studies linking rationalism and lucidity to low levels of exposure to sulfenic acids in general and 1-propenesulfenic acids in particular?
We may not pay too much attention to High Fructose Corn Syrup or partially Hydrogenated oils but we have a zero tolerance for foodstuffs containing those poisonous acids. Hence my incredible brilliance.
As to the question that is going through your mind right now... the answer is "yes, of course" :P
hahahah!! Took a trip to google to figure out what the heck you were talking about. I, on the other hand, consume copious amounts of said acid. And while it may reduce my lucidity, it definitely increases my sharpness, and my ability to critique. Namely to make people cry. It also gives me the unique ability to make good food better and bad food worse. Did I say food? I meant photography.
] of my IMHO incredibly positive critique of a second shooter.