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Archive 2012 · Leica M Monochrome

  
 
naturephoto1
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Leica M Monochrome


dolina wrote:
I would be pleasantly surprised to to see the 240 outperform the Mono.


I kind of doubt it too. But, for me with a battery of 16 Leica R lenses and being a color photographer, the M 240 would be a much more useful tool.

Rich



Jan 24, 2013 at 01:49 PM
joe88
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Leica M Monochrome


check out a comprehensive review here
http://www.reddotforum.com/content.php/226-Leica-M-Monochrom-Review

I have a Monochrom and it has almost all of the same issues that plague the Leica M9, ie slow write speed and small buffer, memory card incompatibility and banding at high ISOs, attracts sensor dust easily (the Monochrom seems to be worse judging from my own camera and also from reading on LUF). It also has a really poor LCD screen, etc etc.

One must really enjoy B&W photography or shooting with a digital rangefinder to be able accept the quirks of these digital Ms. That being said, the B&W files from the Monochrom are absolutely beautiful to look at or post process. Actual resolution is close or similar to a D800E but unless you need High ISO or print really large, you probably find it hard be able to tell apart the M9 and Monochrom B&W files at prints smaller than 17"x22". This is based on my own experience.

At almost $1,000 cheaper here in the USA, I think the new Type 240 might be worth waiting for and probably more practical for most users. Else a used M9 or a new M-E might also be a good alternative.



Jan 24, 2013 at 02:03 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Leica M Monochrome


Thanks Joe for your comments above. Very interesting!
I love seeing the MM B&W shots here in the Leica thread!



Jan 24, 2013 at 02:21 PM
dolina
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Leica M Monochrome


- slow write speed
- small buffer
- memory card incompatibility
- banding at high ISOs
- attracts sensor dust easily
- It also has a really poor LCD screen

... what else? EyeFi, Transcend or Sandisk work with the Mono?



Jan 24, 2013 at 02:58 PM
joe88
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Leica M Monochrome


dolina wrote:
... what else? EyeFi, Transcend or Sandisk work with the Mono?


I use Trandscend 16 & 32GB class 10 cards with no issues but everyone had their own opinions. I had a brand new Sansdisk Ultra 16GB card lock up after less than 50 exposures. Almost all variations of SanDisk had issues for me both on M9 and Mono, from Ultra to Extreme. I haven't tried wifi cards.

Oh, yes if you are nitpicking, the black chrome finish on the Monochrom doesn't appear to wear as well as my film black chrome Leicas or my previous M8. Even with very gentle usage, I can already see some wear on my Mono.

Wayne, one almost have to own the Monochrom to appreciate the B&W files. There is so much midtone and shadow detail, its really quite remarkable. For instance I can crank up the clarity and contrast sliders in LR4 to +99 and the files are still workable and doesn't fall apart. But really, in my opinion, you can't really see most of these details on smaller or medium size prints or monitors unless you look really closely. The details are probably more useful for a photographer to be able to envision and tweak the files to achieve the B&W look he or she wants, rather than for the average observer to see the differences. Hopefully one day soon, Sigma, Sony or the other big manufacturers release a B&W camera for the masses, I think this should not be something exclusive to Leica.




Jan 24, 2013 at 03:43 PM
Bijltje
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Leica M Monochrome


dolina wrote:
- slow write speed
- small buffer
- memory card incompatibility
- banding at high ISOs
- attracts sensor dust easily
- It also has a really poor LCD screen

... what else? EyeFi, Transcend or Sandisk work with the Mono?


Don't look at all the bad things only. Use it and u forget most of them. Beside that I think some "negative" points aren't really an issue for most rangefinder users.

- slow write speed and small buffer: I never hit the buffer's limits with the M9. It might be different for someone else but I never use them in machine gun mode taking a lot of pictures.

- Memory card incompatibility: The MM or M9 don't need state of the art super fast SD cards. They don't film and just don't really need it.
Just buy some good but cheap cards which work and don't look back. I bought a couple of 16 gig sandisc cards for 20 euro a piece and they work perfect.
What is 60 euro on memory a 20.000 euro camera set?

- Banding: I personally never seen banding with my M9. Did with my M8 trough. Don't know if this is a real problem with the MM.

- Attracts sensor dust: But is also easy to clean since there is no mirror . Again I still have to clean my M9p's sensor after more that a year use. My M8 has been cleaned twice in 4 years of use.

- Poor LCD screen: This is really personal. If ur used to digital camera's and constantly looking at the screen indeed there are much better screens. I myself don't really use the screen with the M9 and when the camera and lenses are calibrated properly U really don't have to worry if u snapped the focus.
Even with the 50/0,95 nocti wide open I could use for a short time (unfortunately not longer) every show was right on. And when I missed it I knew without watching the picture.
Because U see the subject while U take the picture (no black out like with an slr) its easy to know.

If u don't allready have the MM, get it and enjoy it. Don't stare to much at its so called "flaws".



Jan 24, 2013 at 03:49 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Leica M Monochrome


joe88 wrote:
I use Trandscend 16 & 32GB class 10 cards with no issues but everyone had their own opinions. I had a brand new Sansdisk Ultra 16GB card lock up after less than 50 exposures. Almost all variations of SanDisk had issues for me both on M9 and Mono, from Ultra to Extreme. I haven't tried wifi cards.

Oh, yes if you are nitpicking, the black chrome finish on the Monochrom doesn't appear to wear as well as my film black chrome Leicas or my previous M8. Even with very gentle usage, I can already see some wear on my Mono.

Wayne, one
...Show more
Yes, maybe Sony can put out a RX1M! How do you think the tonality of the MM files compares to D800E converted to B&W, or B&W film? What is the DR of the MM?



Jan 24, 2013 at 05:01 PM
joe88
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Leica M Monochrome


RX1M would be interesting Actually I find the RX1 B&W files quite nice, probably a combination of the Zeiss lens and 24MP sensor?

There are quite a few reviews on the Mono vs D800E.

See one here
http://blog.mingthein.com/2012/05/27/leica-m-monochrom-vs-d800e/

See also comparison with M9 and film
http://www.imx.nl/photo/leica/m-monochrom.html

Erwin Puts is quite technical and I tend agree with him, if one really intend to carry out a test, you need something that is repeatable and consistent, not some internet blogger playing with words (hype?) or showing us "real world" random shots that is hard to repeat. I kind of agree with Mr Puts assessment on the MM's tonality, closer to pan chromatic B&W emulsion tonality (neutral) than color bayer sensors. He puts the DR at over 8 stops. There are also quite a few very informed B&W shooters at Leica Forum if you want to read up more.




Jan 24, 2013 at 09:16 PM
ryankarr
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Leica M Monochrome


Technical stuff aside (I agree with all the limitations above), it's so fun to use. I've never enjoyed shooting any other camera so much before.


Jan 24, 2013 at 10:55 PM
dolina
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Leica M Monochrome


joe, thank you for the feedback. I have a 16GB transcend card somewhere hidden under the sofa.

Bijltje, I published the "bad" things so I can get a semblance of feedback. As of yet it isn't much a detraction of yet. I also am creating a shopping list of items to go with the Leica. A tad difficult to do if I buy XYZ card and it will not work with the Mono at the get go. The dealer I buy stuff in Manila do not take returns based on incompatibility.

Thank you wayne and ryan for additional side input.



Jan 25, 2013 at 02:01 AM
ISO1600
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Leica M Monochrome


I'll admit I haven't looked very hard, but I'm curious waht the out of camera Monochrom jpgs look like. I've read that with the right in-camera settings they can look amazing.
I'm by no means arguing against the camera, i think it's awesome- but unless the OOC jpgs are awesome, I don't see much allure in it- at least for me.
What I mean is, DNG's require conversion and processing, to at least a minimal level, just as they would from a full RGB sensor.

With all that being said- most of the results I've seen from the MM have been outstanding.



Jan 25, 2013 at 08:18 AM
douglasf13
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Leica M Monochrome


ISO1600 wrote:
I'll admit I haven't looked very hard, but I'm curious waht the out of camera Monochrom jpgs look like. I've read that with the right in-camera settings they can look amazing.
I'm by no means arguing against the camera, i think it's awesome- but unless the OOC jpgs are awesome, I don't see much allure in it- at least for me.
What I mean is, DNG's require conversion and processing, to at least a minimal level, just as they would from a full RGB sensor.

With all that being said- most of the results I've seen from the MM have been outstanding.


Sure, but the advantage of the MM is that you get higher resolution and lower noise than the M9, because there isn't a CFA in the way. If you're a strictly black and white Leica shooter, it is a no-brainier...at least until we see how the M 240 performs.



Jan 25, 2013 at 12:46 PM
dolina
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Leica M Monochrome


douglasf13 wrote:
Sure, but the advantage of the MM is that you get higher resolution and lower noise than the M9, because there isn't a CFA in the way. If you're a strictly black and white Leica shooter, it is a no-brainier...at least until we see how the M 240 performs.

That is my dilemma actually. Comparing the spec sheets between the Mono and the 240 has me wishing the 240 hardware was used for the Mono. Leica appeared to have ironed out the quirks owners have learned to work with on the Mono with the 240.

Purists may see the 240 as betrayal of the M ethos but I see it as Leica going with the times. And who here honestly wouldn't want the option to stick 2TB SDXC into the camera once prices have gone down to $50/TB.

I would like to emphasize that I am not fault finding the Mono. Rather I want to learn all the tips and tricks all users have learned from shooting with it to shorten my learning curve with the camera and not ruin shots when it is avoidable. This would be my first Rangefinder camera so it is a lot to process.



Jan 25, 2013 at 01:38 PM
douglasf13
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · Leica M Monochrome


dolina wrote:
That is my dilemma actually. Comparing the spec sheets between the Mono and the 240 has me wishing the 240 hardware was used for the Mono. Leica appeared to have ironed out the quirks owners have learned to work with on the Mono with the 240.

Purists may see the 240 as betrayal of the M ethos but I see it as Leica going with the times. And who here honestly wouldn't want the option to stick 2TB SDXC into the camera once prices have gone down to $50/TB.

I would like to emphasize that I am not fault finding the
...Show more

I'm a pretty traditional shooter, so I'm really not even planning on upgrading my M9 to the M 240, at least not for a while. I only shoot in manual a couple of images at a time, and I rarely like to preview my images on the LCD screen, so most of the quirks of the M9 don't bother me at all. Heck, I don't even change ISO on the camera, but rather "push" exposure in post, which works very well with this camera.

What I would have liked to see Leica make is a cheaper, more "traditional" digital M camera that removes the LCD (to make the camera thinner) and other tech things, but has the quieter shutter and weather proofing of the M 240. To me, Leica has never been about being competitive with the technology driven cameras. I'm sure most would tell me to just shoot film, but I'm too far from film to go back. Either way, I imagine that I'll shoot the M9 into the ground, since it is plenty good at my usual prints size of 13x19.



Jan 25, 2013 at 01:58 PM
Mitch Alland
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · Leica M Monochrome


Doug, a digital Leica-M without an LCD will never happen for the good reasons that (a) it's highly desirable on a camera like the M-Monochrom to be able to see the histogram on exposure test shots when exposing for the highlights (that's all I use it for), and (b) once there is LiveView it's obviously essential — and LiveView is desirable not only for focusing longer range lenses but also for what Moriyama Daido calls "no finder shots" (hip shots).

The M-Monochrom is an astounding camera. Here is a series of 55 shots that I took some ten days ago in Sri Lanka that shows the capability of this camera in different types of shots and light, called Lanka Footsteps. I also wrote a short review on the M-Monochrom here.

—Mitch/Chiang Mai
Bangkok Hysteria (download link for book project)



Jan 25, 2013 at 08:20 PM
ryankarr
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · Leica M Monochrome


Highlight recovery is non-existant on the Mono. Anything blown out in the histogram is basically completely gone. Shadows still look good if pushed a stop or two, so better to underexpose than overexpose.


Jan 25, 2013 at 10:11 PM
Mitch Alland
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · Leica M Monochrome


Ryan, this is not as weighty or significant as you seem to suggest, as documented in this article, which shows that the differences in highlight recovery are minuscule compared to that of the M9. Incidentally, the linked article is part 3 of an M-Monochrom review, part 2 of which has an interesting comparison of the M-Monochrom with Tri-X film that is also worth reading.

—Mitch/Chiang Mai
Lanka Footsteps [series shot with M-Monochrom]



Jan 25, 2013 at 10:29 PM
douglasf13
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · Leica M Monochrome


Mitch Alland wrote:
Doug, a digital Leica-M without an LCD will never happen for the good reasons that (a) it's highly desirable on a camera like the M-Monochrom to be able to see the histogram on exposure test shots when exposing for the highlights (that's all I use it for), and (b) once there is LiveView it's obviously essential — and LiveView is desirable not only for focusing longer range lenses but also for what Moriyama Daido calls "no finder shots" (hip shots).

The M-Monochrom is an astounding camera. Here is a series of 55 shots that I took some ten days ago
...Show more

I'm not saying that it will exist. I'm just saying that I'd buy such a camera if it was less expensive and the camera body was thinner. It is what I wish the M-E was. Either way, I also wouldn't use live view on such a camera, and I don't review exposure, either, so those reasons don't matter to me.

FWIW, assuming that the MM sensor behaves like the M9, you could just always shoot at base ISO and push exposure in your raw converter, and you'll rarely have to worry about blowing highlights. I essentially never have to recover highlights with my M9, because I keep the camera pegged at base ISO in all lighting conditions and push to taste in Lighroom 4.



Jan 25, 2013 at 10:39 PM
rattymouse
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · Leica M Monochrome


douglasf13 wrote:
I'm not saying that it will exist. I'm just saying that I'd buy such a camera if it was less expensive and the camera body was thinner. It is what I wish the M-E was. Either way, I also wouldn't use live view on such a camera, and I don't review exposure, either, so those reasons don't matter to me.

FWIW, assuming that the MM sensor behaves like the M9, you could just always shoot at base ISO and push exposure in your raw converter, and you'll rarely have to worry about blowing highlights. I essentially never have
...Show more

Does your technique work in super low light situations or do you never shoot like that?



Jan 26, 2013 at 01:33 AM
douglasf13
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p.4 #20 · p.4 #20 · Leica M Monochrome


rattymouse wrote:
Does your technique work in super low light situations or do you never shoot like that?


It works in all lighting conditions. A lot of cameras work this way, nowadays, except for primarily Canon and non-Sony base Nikon sensors. You should try it with your X100.



Jan 26, 2013 at 02:29 AM
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