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Archive 2012 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz

  
 
randyp01
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p.1 #1 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


Hi All,

Looking to purchase another wide angle lens. Sticking with Zeiss. I'm replacing a 17-35 2.8 Contax N and I've found that I shoot more towards the middle of the lens when reviewing my footage. Either the 21 or 25 will suit my FL needs.

I do, however, shoot mostly people so I'm afraid that the 21 will produce undesirable results in comparison to the 25. I could always crop in slight with the 21 and frame the subjects a little bit farther from the edge (as I'm shooting video and rarely center punch).

My concern with the 25 over the 21 is that some of the sample images from lenstip website don't look very sharp. I don't get the same POP feeling from looking at those images.

Input? Cheers



May 31, 2012 at 05:16 PM
wfrank
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p.1 #2 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


Well I cant tell about the difference between those lenses (I have the ZE21 though), but dont worry about Lenstip images. They do not show the potential of the lenses and I believe they are SOOC + neutral or no sharpening. Actually they can put you off from buying really good piece of glass if you used to some of the elegantly PP:ed images here at the alt-forum. The images from the new 25 that I've seen are stellar (and we all know the 21 is stellar for landscapes).

But shooting people I would actually think the 25 also would distort a bit too much (21 is not a good people FL at all IMO) - at least for my taste. 35 is a great focal length for close/live shots of people if you ask me.



May 31, 2012 at 05:49 PM
redisburning
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p.1 #3 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


personally I dont think 21 is bad for people but it takes some thought to do it right.

I have the taschen retrospective of Jean-loup Sieff's work; the shots of people are among the best photographs I've ever seen. He was a big user of the Super Angulon, a 21mm lens. Overall, he is my personal favorite.

One thing I've always felt about any lens wider than 35mm is that you must become especially cognizant of the depth of your subject. to my liking, you do better to either have flatter subjects parallel to the lens or to really push it to where the perspective distortion is part of the image, and to avoid as much as possible anything halfway.



May 31, 2012 at 06:27 PM
philip_pj
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p.1 #4 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


I use the 21mm Distagon for compositions of structures and their surrounding environs and it is absolutely stellar for this purpose. I often, when possible, include people to add interest and context, so here is my view:

If you keep human subjects (i) away from the last 20% of side edges and (ii) more than 2-3 metres from the camera all is well. What many do not realise is that the 21mm is a low distortion lens, around 2%. OneAnt here uses one for people photography to great effect, and the AOV and 'all aperture' excellence gives you a lot of creative opportunities.

The 25mm looks to be an excellent lens for close quarters and I expect could be used in a similar way. Over time, quite a few of those who prefer wider perspectives with CZ will end up with the 25mm and 21mm as well as the more challenging but ridiculously good newcomer, the 15mm.

To be the contrarian, I find that few 35mm lenses do much for human subjects. I feel that the market gives us either excellent fast/large/huge/costly/bokeh 35s or stale lacklustre medium speed 35mm lenses with little real character and inferior technical performance. Paradoxically, the 35mm AOV is wonderful for general photography, structures, urban environments, environmental portraits and landscapes. These trends are evident in the ZE thread.



May 31, 2012 at 07:46 PM
corposant
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p.1 #5 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


This is a tough question... I know it's only 4mm, but these focal lengths in my mind are just so different. Can't you just get both?


May 31, 2012 at 08:18 PM
Keith B.
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p.1 #6 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


philip_pj wrote:
What many do not realise is that the 21mm is a low distortion lens, around 2%.


The Zeiss 21 is low distortion compared to an old zoom or cheap 3rd party design, and it's lower than the old Nikon 20mm/2.8...but not by much.
It's "2%" at the 2/3rds out location, but then recedes to slightly over 1% at the sides of the image. By comparison, the old Super Angulon had almost no distortion anywhere. Of course, today's software can almost completely correct the Distagon's wavy distortion.

Having owned and used the ZF 18, 21, 28, 35/2, 50/2, 85/1.4, and 100/2, I plan to purchase the ZF 25/2
sight unseen as soon as my budget allows. F/2 will be nice if you need it, and the lens...like all the ZF's I've used...should also be good stopped down.



May 31, 2012 at 10:00 PM
redisburning
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p.1 #7 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


philip_pj wrote:
I feel that the market gives us either excellent fast/large/huge/costly/bokeh 35s or stale lacklustre medium speed 35mm lenses with little real character and inferior technical performance. Paradoxically, the 35mm AOV is wonderful for general photography, structures, urban environments, environmental portraits and landscapes. These trends are evident in the ZE thread.


maybe for SLRs, for RF that is untrue. loads of great medium speed 35s; Konica UC Hexar, Leica Summicron, Zeiss c-Biogon, etc.

And of course there are the old favorites; 8 element cron, f2.8 summaron, nikon 35/1.8, etc.




Jun 01, 2012 at 01:02 AM
philber
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p.1 #8 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


I had the 21, acquired the 25, wompared them, and let the 21 go. let's skip over the obvious, suchg as FL, price, weight, cost. In terms of IQ, they both have one "nasty". The 21 has mustache distortion, and, while it can be corrected in LightRoom, obviously it would be better if it weren't there. It has only visible affected some 2% of my shots, though. The 25 has extreme corners that aren't totally sharp, even stopped down. It is only extreme corners, mind, just a few pixels.
But it s the performance across 85% of the frame for 85% of the shots that I careabout more than any extreme performance, and that is where the 25 pushes the 21 to show its age. Colours are just a bit better differentiated with the 25, transitions are more gradual, indicating a greater affinity for very small detail. Items retain a very precise spatial placement even in OOF areas, again indicating the same. Note that the 21 isn't exactly bad at this, not at all, but the 25 is just a bit better, and I could tell the 25 from a cropped 21 whenever I looked for the signs.
As to "pop", it is possible that one would think the 21 has more, as the more detail a system has the more gradual its transitions, as the ZE 35 f:1.4 shows in comparison to the more "pop"-y but less detailed f:2.0, but the 25 is actually more accurate at 3D.
A simple way to assess the 25 is to say that it is vey close indeed to being a wider 65 f:1.4. Those two lenses have a very similar rendering. And, while the 21 is always wonderfully spectacular, even dramatic, the 25 can do this, but can also render very lean, austere shots. That absence of a visual signature is the sign of a more transparent lens IMHO.
But, before you read too much into the above, both lenses, as befits stablemates, are still closer to each other than to any other lenses from othe makers.
Hope this helps.



Jun 01, 2012 at 01:34 AM
OneAnt
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p.1 #9 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


Philber, every time I read your word "nasty" the flow of reading is broken. Its an ugly word reserved for extreme or unpleasant acts and not a part of the venicular for discussion of either lens unless that lens has been used somehow in the production of video material that Mary Whitehouse might disapprove of. I can't even find it in an image of mine and I'd be even more disappointed in myself if I was to go looking.

A photograph is going to have to be damned good for it to be undone by either abberation and so I might suggest that the challenges of using any lens lie elsewhere.

We have few if any videographers here, or at least none that have expressed a concern with the 21's moustache distortion or the soft corners of the 25. Much like the still photographers the discussions in video are related to the render.

Ant.
ɹǝpun uʍop puɐl ǝɥʇ ɯoɹɟ



Jun 01, 2012 at 04:06 AM
wfrank
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p.1 #10 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


Oh hi Ant,

Since you're here, why dont you post that shot of that BW church-guy, totally undermining me saying that the 21 is not good for people.

But I still want to say that that image - which still tops all I've seen on FM among hundreds of absolutely amazing shots - is to be honest, the exception that proves the rule



Jun 01, 2012 at 04:26 AM
OneAnt
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p.1 #11 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


I think that if your main requirement is people photography then the 25 is the better choice. The 21 as you say can be cropped but then much of what is desirable from this lens is lost to the cutting floor and what remains is less than the whole. To reduce your editing, you'll have no choice but to get in closer and the closer you get the more obvious that 25mm is going to be more practical and kinder to faces.

If you want to stand in the scene then this is where the 25 will shine. I find this FL is so personal and that as a viewer we get to be close enough to be a part of what is happening. Its possible with the 21 but the scene needs to be of greater value than it would need to be with a longer lens and for an environmental portrait I think its better than a 35mm lens.

I think the colour of the 25 is beautiful, the fine detail is stunning and while the 21 might have the drama of a wide, the 25 has a quality that makes me weak at the knees. Its my next zeiss and I could easily leave the 21 and the 35/2 in the bag and cover everything between these FLs with this one lens. The falloff from subject to background is its best feature and affects me far beyond the 'pop' of the 21.

I'd love to see some studio work with it and even some b&w, the iq for this lens is just extraordinary and everyone already knows I love the 21.

You would love both and maybe one day might end up with both but the 25 is the gem for those of us not so committed to landscapes and want something for close in work.

here is a 25 image from http://www.nightmedia.net/
http://g1.img-dpreview.com/0B604C52A78F4D71AE8E77255CAC90AC.jpg

and mine for the 21 ...(again)



Ant.
ɹǝpun uʍop puɐl ǝɥʇ ɯoɹɟ


Edited on Jun 01, 2012 at 06:54 AM · View previous versions



Jun 01, 2012 at 06:43 AM
OneAnt
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p.1 #12 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


wfrank wrote:
Oh hi Ant,

Since you're here, why dont you post that shot of that BW church-guy, totally undermining me saying that the 21 is not good for people.

But I still want to say that that image - which still tops all I've seen on FM among hundreds of absolutely amazing shots - is to be honest, the exception that proves the rule


Hey Wilhelm. I try to say that I have other nice pictures too but no one believes me (grin).
Will start taking pics again soon ...been a long time and time for a change in style too I think.

Ant.




Jun 01, 2012 at 06:51 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.1 #13 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


For landscapes I still prefer the ZE 21/2.8 for its great rendering across the frame and color for foliage.
For city/urban and people shooting I prefer the 25/2 which will outperform the 21 at more wide open apertures (<f4) and have less vignetting at f2.8. Not to mention, the smaller size and especially the smaller front element size of the 25 vs. the 21 makes it a much less intimidating/noticeable lens for people/street shooting.Bokeh of the 25 is smoother/better than the 21.



Jun 01, 2012 at 02:09 PM
OneAnt
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p.1 #14 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


That is stunning Philber, exactly the colour and as painterly as I've ever seen it. The 28 is a bit painterly like this but doesnt have the soft transition.

The 35/1.4 is a nice lens too but I dont see myself using it like I would the 25. Wayne has an enviable kit if he has both, I better catch up.

Ant.



Jun 01, 2012 at 08:53 PM
carlitos
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p.1 #15 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


I'd say the 28 is not as contrasty as the 25, but each has its own personality. The image above is a pretty good representation of the 25, especially in the colors of the boat.


Jun 01, 2012 at 09:07 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.1 #16 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


OneAnt wrote:
That is stunning Philber, exactly the colour and as painterly as I've ever seen it. The 28 is a bit painterly like this but doesnt have the soft transition.

The 35/1.4 is a nice lens too but I dont see myself using it like I would the 25. Wayne has an enviable kit if he has both, I better catch up.

Ant.

Sorry Ant, I only rented and shot for a week with the z* 25/2.
I didn't get the 25/2 yet as I have and enjoy my 24G/1.4 and I will buy a ZF version of 21 for my ordered D800E.



Jun 02, 2012 at 03:54 AM
philber
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p.1 #17 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


Ha, but I have both 25 and 35, Ant, hence my statement that they are very close in rendering. When I posted the comparison, I was in the minority in preferring the 25, but my first priority is colours and colour differentiation, and I feel it is where it just edges out the 35, and where the 21, outstanding though it is, begins to show its age just a wee bit.


Jun 02, 2012 at 04:15 AM
OneAnt
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p.1 #18 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


Just very different lenses, imagine the disappointment many landscape togs would suffer if the 21 had the render of the 25 or 35. Its why a 140 flavors icecream shop always has a 21mm vanilla.
...very rich flavours these two newer Zeiss and yet the 15 is a lens that compliments the 21 and its the newest design (and double cream). I guess you see the new 25 and 35 as upgrades but I see them as very different lenses. In OPs question I thought hard about the usefulness and it came down to subject and FL and the possibilities. I desperately want the 24 but would never think twice about trading my 21, not the same lens and not as simple as one is better than the other but for a use and at a FL then one becomes better suited ....but it doesnt make the other old and useless. OP has got two great choices.

I'm just grateful that the 15 is just a wee bit too wide for me but will fall about all over the place if Zeiss make something longer then the 100 and I suppose they are certain to do that ....and especially if I beg.

Ant.



Jun 02, 2012 at 05:17 AM
wfrank
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p.1 #19 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


OneAnt wrote:
I'm just grateful that the 15 is just a wee bit too wide for me but will fall about all over the place if Zeiss make something longer then the 100 and I suppose they are certain to do that ....and especially if I beg.


be sure to avoid The Nether of Contax CY. It's so rich and full of temptation :o)



Jun 02, 2012 at 05:27 AM
randyp01
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p.1 #20 · Zeiss 25mm 2.0 vs Zeiss 21mm 2.8 ... discuss plz


Thank you all for the wonderful discussion! I shoot more often than not with subjects at the edge of frame and to avoid a constant distortion battle, the 21 isn't suited for me now. I'll look to purchase the 25mm. I've shot with the 21 a bit but that 25 fl is really tempting...


Jun 02, 2012 at 05:33 AM
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