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Archive 2012 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

rabbitmountain
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p.1 #1 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Hello forum,

This is a long post (sorry) but you could skip most of it and proceed to my questions at the end. The rest is just information.

After having a PM conversation with one of our members and a half hour phone chat with the dutch Elinchrom distributor, I've narrowed down my options to the following two sets. It's going to be either:
- BXRi 250/500 or
- Dual Style RX300

First let me explain what I want to do. I'm a fairly experienced studio setup shooter when it comes to Canon Speedlghts. I always use manual flash, RF transmitters and a home made softbox (60x90cm) that is still better than most commercial SB's I've seen so far. Ever more frequently now, I need more power.
Here are my purposes:
1. Home studio
Shoot portraits in my home studio:
- room 1 has L/W/H 7/3/2.6
- room 2 has L/W/H 5/4/2.6m with a double door so I can back up to make for a 6m camera - background distance. No super fast action required (like jumping people or splashing water), but I want to be able to freeze some movement.
2. Portraits on location (inside and outside)
Groups: up to 4 people wide, background with = 2,75m, to barely fit into my Ford Smax.

Budget: �1500, including backgrounds, not including batteries for non-AC power shoots.

Options:
I selected Elinchrom for the following requirements:
a. continuous accessory congruency for 3+ decades
b. short flash duration compared to similarly priced Bowens units
c. my buddy photographer has 2 Elinchrom BXRi 500, so we can share equipment and create multi flash setups easily
d. combine with my Canon speedlights 580EXII and 430EXII, so min Power is important to be as low as possible

Models and specs:
A. flash duration / max Power / min power
- BXRi 250: 1/2762s / 250Ws / 1/16 = 16 Ws
- BXRi 500: 1/1558s / 500Ws / 1/16 = 31 Ws
- RX 300: 1/2850s / 300Ws / 1/32 = 9 Ws
B. Cost
- BXRi 250/500 To Go: �1100 [in the package: 1x BXRi250, 1x BXRi500, 2x portalite SB66x66, 1x skyport transmitter, 2x sync cable 5m, bags (not polycase).
- Style RX300 To Go: �1250 [in the package: 2x RX300, spot snoot+grid, 1 portalite SB66x66, 1 umb transparent, 1 umb silver, 2 quick lock stands, bags and polycase, 1 sync cable 5m]

What puzzles me most is which models to get. I'm leaning towards the Style RX 300. The main reason is that I get a combination of the shortest flash duration with the lowest power, and I like having 1 SB+the umbrellas instead of 2 SB's. iPad control is just a bonus.

And here come the questions:
Question A is about power
In your experience, for the studio size I have, would anyone say I absolutely need 500Ws units? I will be shooting individuals @f/8, groups @f/5.6 and some creative work @f/2.8-4. I'm afraid the 500Ws units emit too much power even at their lowest setting (16 Ws)

Question B is about flash duration
I've read that flash duration is always listed at 1/1 (full) power and that it increases when dialing down the power. What can you say about flash duration @ 1/32 - 1/16 power? Is it like double or triple the length, or more like 20-30%? Would these strobes be fast enough to stop the motion in nerve-wrecking-always-keep-moving-children-shoots?

Question C is about anything I've overlooked
Should I consider other options? Did I forget anything?

Thanks!

Ralph

Mar 31, 2012 at 05:29 AM

aaaja
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p.1 #2 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Hi

maybe this helps a bit:
I had 2 BXRi 500 and turned them back. the minimum WS is as you noticed 31mws wich i very, very bright for portraits.
now i have a 300 RX and a 600RX wich gives me much more range.

BUT: the BXRI have a built in Skyport and i think are much more modern. they have all kind of controls (get the mnauals) - i am not able to sync with canon speedlight for example. (if you find a way let me know (did not try with cable yet)

the elincrohm softboxes do not offer additional light dimming with fabric or so. and i think one has to be careful about it (heat unreliable results etc)

the flash duration for portrait - even jumping people is ok. 1/1280 and 1/2050 at minimum ws. that is fine. if it gets you in troubles just play with the iso of your camera.

good luck to you

Mar 31, 2012 at 10:41 AM

rabbitmountain
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p.1 #3 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Hi aaaja,

Thanks for your insights. I did not expect the Style RX 300 to be in any way inferior to the BXRi, but apparently the BXRi are more recent. I will download the manuals. What you're saying about the minimum Ws can be too bright, is what I was afraid of.

Some questions:
1. How large / small is your studio?
2. What is your typical camera - subject distance?
3. What is your typical flash - subject distance?
4. How often do you use your RX300 / RX600 at/above 5.3 setting? 5.3 is the max. power of the BXRi250.

As for syncing with Canon speedlights: my friend who has 2 BXRi500 does not use the Skyport system. He controls the Speedlight with a RF transmitter/receiver and the BXRi500 units are triggered automatically by their built-in slave unit. I'll check the manuals to see if the RX300's have that slave functionality.

Flash duration and playing with ISO? Well, as the duration is shortest at full power, I could dial down the ISO to 50 on my 5Dclassic and increase the strobe's power. Funny thing you'd have to decrease ISO in order to stop action most effectively.

Thanks, Ralph

Mar 31, 2012 at 01:52 PM

rabbitmountain
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p.1 #4 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Just an afterthought: what if I want to illuminate a group of 8 people (2 rows of 4) with an indirect octa, f/8. Will 250 Ws be enough? That's why I'm thinking BXRi 250/500 combo.

Mar 31, 2012 at 02:01 PM

Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #5 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

It is my opinion that you get as much power as you can buy. You can dial it down but not up. I have RX-300's and 600's and typically use the 300 for a hair/rim, etc. light. But it's only one stop difference. You can always use ND gels or the deflectors to dialed the power down of the 600 more if you need to. So if you can only to buy one thing for a while I would either get the 250/500 kit or an RX-600, a 90 degree reflector, a good stand, and a good umbrella like their white 41" and go from there. Much easier to add a nicer modifier later than a $900 strobe. The other advantage to the BXRi's is that they have the Skyport built in so you can save a little money on the RX receiver. But my RX's have been rock solid for the last 4 years.

Apr 01, 2012 at 11:28 AM

rabbitmountain
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p.1 #6 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Hi Gregg,

Your advice is to be on the upper side of power. As someone totally inexperienced with these strobes and you having used them for 4 years, it's hard for me to disagree. But I can have trouble to understand. Because a RX600 is - on paper - slower than a RX300.

You owning a RX300 and a RX600, it would really help me if you could describe situations where your RX600 was able to do something your RX300 fell short. I'd appreciate that.

Ralph

Apr 01, 2012 at 03:04 PM

PShizzy
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p.1 #7 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Ralph,

the slowness of the 600 vs the 300 isn't that important unless you shoot a lot of high speed photography. For group shots and portraits, it's actually overkill at 1/2050th of a second.

I'd also say that while Gregg makes a point about having more power is better than having less, you should look at the fact that your friend has the 500ws units. If you got the 250 or 300s, then you could use their kit for higher power needs, and they could borrow yours for background, kickers etc.

Personally, I own 8 600S units, the older non digital units. I need the speed for action, but they were also bought used for a lot less than what the digital units cost. However, if i had to add units, I would consider the BXRI mostly due to the sky port built in.

Apr 01, 2012 at 03:50 PM

rabbitmountain
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p.1 #8 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Hi Max, thanks for tuning in. As my budget allows for 2 units, I intend to use my 2 speedlights for hairlight and/or kicker. So I'll want to be able to dial down the power of the new strobes. Featuring 6 stops range, the RX's appeal more to me. Built in skyports: If I really want to control the flash output by a remote device I can get the extra skyport set.

I could also get a BXRi 250/500, so I would have at least one 16 Ws strobe and one powerful one. They're more economical too compared to the RX series.

But what I'm trying to figure out is if I will ever really need the power for my photographic needs. When do you actually need 600 Ws? Or is it that you get faster regeneration times and less heat accumulation when shooting a 600RX @150 Ws vs a 300RX @150Ws?

Or do I need more power if I want to back up the strobe for large groups? Or when I get an Octa 135?

Hope you will enlighten me 8-)

Apr 01, 2012 at 04:51 PM

hugowolf
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p.1 #9 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

rabbitmountain wrote:
Your advice is to be on the upper side of power. As someone totally inexperienced with these strobes and you having used them for 4 years, it's hard for me to disagree. But I can have trouble to understand. Because a RX600 is - on paper - slower than a RX300.
It is slower, but not much. And flash duration is only one of many things to consider.

But while looking at duration, both the quoted 1/2850 s for the 300 RX and 1/2050 s for the 600 RX are for t0.5, which is the time to reach half output and still plenty of light to affect subject motion. T0.1, the time taken for the light to decay to a tenth of peak or about three stops down, is about 3 times this at 1/950 s and 1/685 s.

Brian A

Apr 01, 2012 at 04:54 PM

Gregg Heckler
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p.1 #10 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Ralph,

All of the others have made very good points. For most home studios 300 to 500 watts is plenty of power. But when you start adding larger modifiers and diffusion tools 2 or 3 stops can get eaten up pretty quickly. So the extra power when you need it is very handy and I suspect you will want to do some outdoor work at a some point in time as well. I wouldn't get too caught up in flash duration for a home studio unless you expect a lot of running, dancing, and jumping during your portrait sessions.

Apr 02, 2012 at 10:43 PM

PShizzy
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p.1 #11 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Rabbit,

As much as I want to agree with Gregg (and I do to an extent), the reason I don't outright say go more power, is that you mention indoor more than outdoor. What's the breakdown on this.

For example, if you told me 90% of your work is indoors? I say low power. You can borrow your friends for the other 10% if it turns out you need it.

But if 90% of your work was outdoors? I'd say go big. You can't ever have too much power for outside. Problem is, those bigger lights can be hard to control indoors in smaller studios.

I know this hasn't completely answered your question but hope it's giving you a little more to think about. Any more questions, keep em coming

Apr 05, 2012 at 01:44 AM

rabbitmountain
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p.1 #12 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Hi Max,
Thanks!

I should mention that my friend is quite busy so i can't rely on being able to borrow/exchange gear. I'll need to be self supporting.

That said, I don't think I'll shoot outside much. Mostly inside, but lots wil be shot on location.

I'm not very experienced when it comes to outside strobes. Can anyone which type of outside shots one needs strobes for?

Apr 05, 2012 at 04:04 PM

Patrick Lanius
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p.1 #13 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

rabbitmountain wrote:
Question B is about flash duration
I've read that flash duration is always listed at 1/1 (full) power and that it increases when dialing down the power. What can you say about flash duration @ 1/32 - 1/16 power? Is it like double or triple the length, or more like 20-30%?

Ralph,

Regarding your question, duration for monolight strobes (non-thyristor, non-pack) is shortest at full power. A good rule of thumb is that duration lengthens by a factor of 2 at 5 stops below full power.

Durations are most often quoted with T5 specs. A better spec for action stopping ability is the T1 spec. A good rule of thumb is that the T1 duration is about 3 times as long as the T5 duration.

Here is a link to the Owners Manual for the Elinchrom RX series. Specs are on page 12.

So, at 5 stops below full power, RX300�s have a T5 duration of 1/1350 and a T1 duration more like 1/450 sec.

Apr 06, 2012 at 12:33 PM

tazzz78
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p.1 #14 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

rabbitmountain wrote:
As for syncing with Canon speedlights: my friend who has 2 BXRi500 does not use the Skyport system. He controls the Speedlight with a RF transmitter/receiver and the BXRi500 units are triggered automatically by their built-in slave unit. I'll check the manuals to see if the RX300's have that slave functionality.

Hi
BxRi have got intelligent slave cell that you can program to trigger by your speedlight. Speedlight is not one flash - in fact it flashes 3 times in very short succession. I do not believe that RX offers this functionality - it will trigger optically but it will trigger on the first flash not on the third one.
Hope it helps.

Apr 07, 2012 at 05:20 PM

dgardner
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p.1 #15 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

I'm sorta looking at similar issue, RX vs BXRI 500, 3 to be exact as my 1st studio strobes> Can't you just cut the power in half(if at lowest strobe power) by reducing f-stop?

Apr 08, 2012 at 04:52 PM

hugowolf
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p.1 #16 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

dgardner wrote:
I'm sorta looking at similar issue, RX vs BXRI 500, 3 to be exact as my 1st studio strobes> Can't you just cut the power in half(if at lowest strobe power) by reducing f-stop?
If you mean by increasing f-stop and using a smaller aperture, then there are limits to that too. Apart from the possibility that you may want to use a large aperture for shallow depth of field, there are diffraction limitations on the lens. Smaller apertures result in visible image softening. Shooting at f/32 is rarely a good idea, even on MF.

And, what do you do if your key light is at its lowest setting, and you want your fill to be half that?

You can always add extra layers of diffusion material on softboxes and ND gels to reflectors, but this is slower and more cumbersome than turning down a light.

~8-10 Ws is a good minimum for a small studio space. If you have speedlight with manual power settings to test in your space, you can get an idea of how low you may need to go. Something like a Canon 550/580ex or Nikon SB-910/900/800 will give you at most 80 Ws (64 Ws would probably be closer). And remember, these speedlights go down to 1/128 manually and a lot lower when used in ETTL/iTTL modes.

Brian A

Apr 08, 2012 at 11:19 PM

dgardner
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p.1 #17 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

Do you mean 80 Ws at full 1/1 power?, I'm currently using SB 900's

Apr 09, 2012 at 08:16 PM

hugowolf
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p.1 #18 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

dgardner wrote:
Do you mean 80 Ws at full 1/1 power?, I'm currently using SB 900's
Yes, top line Canon and Nikon flashes are about equivalent to 80 Ws at full power.

Brian A

Apr 09, 2012 at 09:24 PM

dgardner
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p.1 #19 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

So, if just shooting in basement almost all the time, then probably better to get a 250-300 ws light?

Apr 14, 2012 at 07:33 AM

rabbitmountain
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p.1 #20 · Elinchrom: BXRi 250/500 or Style RX300?

It appears to be so. With a RX300 you get 6 stops of control, 250BXRi gets you 5. They both go down to very low levels. 250 are obviously the least expensive and offer more features when used along with speedlights.

Apr 14, 2012 at 02:41 PM

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