p.27 #1 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
I am going to regret saying this again since it seems to be ignored: before the 5d3 started shipping, I do not recall anyone here complaining about the 7d viewfinder, and I've never had an issue with it. The positive responses to the way the viewfinder is less cluttered were very common. Obviously, Canon would not intentionally make the camera harder for anyone to use, and it was just as obviously field tested for 3+ years. So, in what sense where they either incompetent or ignored?
Any time they make a change to their bodies they run the risk of having a problem, but if they don't try to innovate they get crucified. Of course everything I just said will get dismissed as me being a fanboy, but if you can possibly be objective you will realize that problems happen all the time when you try to innovate in the tech industry.
p.27 #3 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
I think the part that you're missing is that the 5D3 / 1DX points are (1) much smaller in relative size area, and (2) much thinner in absolute terms on the screen. Both issues compounded very well make a difference between an AF point that you can and can not see. Add to that (3) that there are 3x as many AF points on the 5D3/1DX, things can get very confusing very quickly.
p.27 #4 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Maybe I have to say it differently: I believe that there is a legitimate issue you guys are having with the 5d3. That is not the point I am trying to make. My point is that canon routinely introduces new features/techniques in the lower and mid range bodies before putting them in the 1 series. This generally proves to be highly successful- EVEN THOUGH IN THIS CASE IT HASN'T WORKED OUT AS WELL AS EVERYONE WISHES. That doesn't mean canon is cheap, lazy or stupid; just that the field testing of the 7d didn't directly apply to the fullframe counterpart.
shit happens; don't take it as a personal affront to you by canon
p.27 #5 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
timbop wrote:
Maybe I have to say it differently: I believe that there is a legitimate issue you guys are having with the 5d3. That is not the point I am trying to make. My point is that canon routinely introduces new features/techniques in the lower and mid range bodies before putting them in the 1 series. This generally proves to be highly successful- EVEN THOUGH IN THIS CASE IT HASN'T WORKED OUT AS WELL AS EVERYONE WISHES. That doesn't mean canon is cheap, lazy or stupid; just that the field testing of the 7d didn't directly apply to the fullframe counterpart.
shit happens; don't take it as a personal affront to you by canon ...Show more →
p.27 #6 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
stanj wrote:
I think the part that you're missing is that the 5D3 / 1DX points are (1) much smaller in relative size area, and (2) much thinner in absolute terms on the screen. Both issues compounded very well make a difference between an AF point that you can and can not see. Add to that (3) that there are 3x as many AF points on the 5D3/1DX, things can get very confusing very quickly.
I'm assuming the early testers saw these problems come together to make low light AF visibility very difficult.
So we are back to the question of WHY didn't Canon do something about this long before this camera went into production? It appears they simply ignored the issue and now because of the design we are going to get a half
ass solution on a $7000 flagship body.
p.27 #8 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
I borrowed one day the D4 for a few minutes from a guy, on the D4 they have a red led for each AF point like on the DM IV, on this "intelligent viewfinder" we have been blessed with the light comes from the side ... its ust one main light (or even two maybe) coming from the side of the VF. It looks awesome on the D4 !
p.27 #9 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
There is lottsa posts here....heck, I should have said "lottsa pages", over one issue which some folks would call minor. Similar length threads used to be generated on the topic of the 1DMkIII AF problem a few years ago.
I have used 7D over a year now, and its AF point display works OK for me. However, I haven't done any night photography with it yet.
p.27 #10 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Some people called the 1D3 AF issues minor, or even non-existent. Same with the 50L focus shift. It all depends on perspective, and on whether your usage pattern hits it or not. I tried to explain above why the 7D and 5D3/1DX have different perceptions, price point aside, and why the 7D users indeed may never have experienced it.
Get a 1DX, shoot it for a few days in extremely bright or extremely low light, and form your own opinion. But just because most people shoot in moderate light, doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist at the extremes. While Nikon went with an overall similar design, clearly they saw the problem with the D4 and made according adjustments.
p.27 #12 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
Yakim Peled wrote:
Sorry. I must have missed something by joining the party so late. What is the problem with the viewfinder of the 7D?
Happy shooting,
Yakim.
Yakim, I don't know, I haven't had any problems of that nature with 7D.
However, it appears that 5DMkIII and 1DX have similar AF point displays to 7D (?), and that design is apparently causing severe enough problems to a few chaps on this board.
p.27 #13 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
PetKal wrote:
There is lottsa posts here....heck, I should have said "lottsa pages", over one issue which some folks would call minor. Similar length threads used to be generated on the topic of the 1DMkIII AF problem a few years ago.
I have used 7D over a year now, and its AF point display works OK for me. However, I haven't done any night photography with it yet.
Unfortunately it is an issue and I reported on my review. If the Canon 7D shares the same viewfinder design, it's a problem on it as well.
With the Canon 5D Mark III, when shooting in very low light, the focusing points become invisible. On very bright light I'm not able to detect if the red light focus confirmation was triggered. A workaround it to pay attention to the green dot or have a the confirmation beep turned on. However, in low light you better remember the location of the previously set focusing point. Yesterday I tested this again when walking the dog with my daughter. Even with the focusing point "guessing", I was able to get this shot at ISO 51200 with my 135L.
p.27 #14 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
stanj wrote:
I think the part that you're missing is that the 5D3 / 1DX points are (1) much smaller in relative size area, and (2) much thinner in absolute terms on the screen. Both issues compounded very well make a difference between an AF point that you can and can not see. Add to that (3) that there are 3x as many AF points on the 5D3/1DX, things can get very confusing very quickly.
That's if you choose to turn on all 61 AF points. There are times when a photographer might not need all 61 AF points and might use, say, just 9 instead. What's more, your point doesn't address the fact that the AF point is not illuminated during AI Servo mode, which would largely nullify the concern about the VF being too cluttered as only one AF point needs to be illuminated to help the photographer track subjects and know where the selected AF point is.
p.27 #15 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
timbop wrote:
I am going to regret saying this again since it seems to be ignored: before the 5d3 started shipping, I do not recall anyone here complaining about the 7d viewfinder, and I've never had an issue with it. The positive responses to the way the viewfinder is less cluttered were very common. Obviously, Canon would not intentionally make the camera harder for anyone to use, and it was just as obviously field tested for 3+ years. So, in what sense where they either incompetent or ignored?
And I am going to regret replying to your defense (again) of Canon. Once again, the 7D is used by a different type of consumer that either didn't know what they were missing OR shot photographs differently than more prosumers and/or professional photographers who were using bodies 2 to 5 times more expensive than your 7D. You can continue to support Canon in this cause if you wish; that's fine. But you are ignoring the fact that there are a lot of people here who have a problem with this, and a lot of people on other bulletin boards, and then there's Canon Rumors, which states:
"A lot of people are finding it hard and/or impossible to see which AF point is selected when shooting in dark conditions, like a wedding reception. There are also people telling me they’re having trouble tracking birds in flight with the 1D X and the black AF points."
You are very clearly in the minority here. Perhaps you shoot differently than me. Perhaps you don't shoot the same subject matter. Perhaps you own stock in Canon and find it necessary to defend them on something where clearly you do not even have a dog in the fight. Whatever the case, it is a problem for me and for others.
So, in what sense where (sic) they either incompetent or ignored? In the same sense they were either incompetent or ignor(ant) during the fiasco with the AF mechanism on the Canon 1D Mark III. In the same sense they should have fixed the light leak on the 5D Mark III before it was manufactured (and while it has no discernible impact on photography, it does on sales as "image is everything"). In the same sense their market share has eroded steadily since 2005. Incompetent? No, not likely. Arrogant? Perhaps, but also not likely. Disorganized? Much more likely.
Any time they make a change to their bodies they run the risk of having a problem, but if they don't try to innovate they get crucified. Of course everything I just said will get dismissed as me being a fanboy, but if you can possibly be objective you will realize that problems happen all the time when you try to innovate in the tech industry.
How in the world do you see this as an "innovation?" This is not a step forward, it is a step backwards. And the mere fact that they did not make this change clearly known to consumers when the camera was announced and as it was being released is the very reason I believe Canon was worried about consumer reaction to this change. I guarantee someone complained about it during testing. It would have been impossible for someone coming from a previous 1D, 1Ds, or 5D camera to ignore.
p.27 #16 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
I've tried to stay out of this thread over the past month or so but have continued to follow it. I made all my salient points about the issue way back in the early 10 pages or so
However, I thought that I would add to the most recent discussion and say that I have both the 7D and 5D3 and 5D2 and although stanj is right that the 7D's points are much larger in the viewfinder and maybe that could make them easier to see, Todd is right that there really isn't any difference between the 7D and 5D3 when in AI Servo and I don't actually find much of a difference in one-shot mode either even though the 5D3 points are smaller in the VF. I think if one has been okay with the 7D for what they have been shooting, then that person will also be fine with the 5D3 and 1DX. The reverse will also be true. If the 7D doesn't work for you then neither will the two new guys.
Overall, it seems like the whole system has combined to make 4 major issues that people have been discussing:
1: Can't see the red light in brighter light conditions as the ambient light is too much for the side LEDs to overpower
2: Can't see the black squares in low light
3: Lighting up the black squares in low light venues causes a red "cylon" type glow from the lens visible to others/disturbing to others
4: No focus point shows once tracking in AI Servo whether black or lit up.
After using the 5D3 for the last 3 months, the only issue that somewhat affects me is the 4th item. All I would like is the active point to stay on the screen in black as I track my subject.
Item #1 doesn't affect me as I shoot with f/2.8 and above lenses so the black points have good contrast and I can always see them fine in low to bright light.
Item #2 hasn't bothered me as I've been used to just hitting the af point selection button or moving the joystick to get them to light in red.
Item #3 hasn't bothered me as I don't shoot in dark conditions like theatres, movie sets etc...
Obviously for others, these 4 issues will take on greater or lesser importance and one will have to decide if it is a "deal breaker" or not for there own situation. What we do know is Canon will only be able to provide a very limited type of fix. Maybe they can address the 4th issue. I would be very surprised if they could fix the 3rd or 1st via firmware. The 2nd maybe could be improved by keeping the active point lit but then that would accentuate the 3rd issue even more. Therefore, I would say that one may have to look at a different body than the 5D3 or 1DX for this generation of cameras if the AF point/VF doesn't work for them. Unfortunate but true.
p.27 #17 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
arbitrage wrote:
Obviously for others, these 4 issues will take on greater or lesser importance and one will have to decide if it is a "deal breaker" or not for there own situation. What we do know is Canon will only be able to provide a very limited type of fix. Maybe they can address the 4th issue. I would be very surprised if they could fix the 3rd or 1st via firmware. The 2nd maybe could be improved by keeping the active point lit but then that would accentuate the 3rd issue even more. Therefore, I would say that one may have to look at a different body than the 5D3 or 1DX for this generation of cameras if the AF point/VF doesn't work for them. Unfortunate but true....Show more →
that's exactly why I'm waiting out and see what happens, not getting 1Dx and waiting. Heck I at least hope Canon will re-consider the "intelligent viewfinder" for next gen bodies if I won't be happy with the "fix" for these two bodies.
p.27 #18 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
pompo wrote:
that's exactly why I'm waiting out and see what happens, not getting 1Dx and waiting. heck I at least hope Canon will re-consider the "intelligent viewfinder" for next gen bodies it I won;t be happy with the "fix" for these.
I've never shot a 1D4 but after learning more about it through this very thread, I would hope Canon would go to a 1D4 type system for the 5D4 and 1DX MkII and even for a 7D MkII. Seems like that system is the best out there?? Can the Nikon D4 with its individual LEDs also display electronic levels and such?? Personally, I could give up the electronic levels and grids in favour for a permanently easy to see red square in AI Servo
p.27 #19 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
After using the camera for a full 3 hours in a rainforest garden the other day, even in the darkest parts of the walk, I had zero issue with seeing the AF points. I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed, but it's panning out like my 7D, a camera I had never really noticed the problem. I haven't tried it in very dark environments yet however.
p.27 #20 · 5d M III Viewfinder illumination and af points!
arbitrage wrote:
Personally, I could give up the electronic levels and grids in favour for a permanently easy to see red square in AI Servo
Me too. Don't fix something that isn't broken. Why is Nikon getting these little things right? Not saying they don't
have their fair share of issues but at the pro body level they seem very spot on lately.
