p.6 #2 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
wickerprints wrote:
This is quite bizarre. Are my posts difficult to comprehend? Do I write poorly or vaguely? I ask because so far, three different people have misread or misinterpreted my earlier post, and I cannot understand why.
Let me try to be more clear, then.
Manual focus users like to use the super-precision matte because it is an important focusing aid, offering an improvement in visual acquisition of focus through the optical VF over the standard precision matte.
However, many AF users such as myself, like the super-precision matte not because it helps us focus, or confirm focus, but for a different (but related) reason: because we tend to favor the use of fast-aperture primes, we like the super-precision screen's ability to let us better see the true extent of blur in the out-of-focus regions of the image. If I'm relying on AF for the shot, I don't need to study the optical VF to see if it hit or not. The super-precision screen is there so that I can better estimate the way the bokeh will look when I actually take the shot.
In my personal experience, when I switch between the Eg-A and Eg-S, I notice a little difference in the way the focus looks, but even with the Eg-S, I can look through the VF all day and not be 100% sure I hit critical focus. The only way I can be sure is with 10x Live View. Don't believe me? Try it for yourself. Put the camera on a tripod, then use 10x Live View to focus on a super-shallow DOF scene. Then tweak the focus ever so slightly off. Now flip the mirror down and look through the viewfinder. Can you see that the focus is off? You just can't. Nobody can. It's like trying to check for accurate focus using a scaled down image versus the 100% crop. It looks sharp at 900x600, but not at 5616x3744.
To summarize, in terms of focus precision (assuming a stationary camera and subject), MF with LV > AF > MF with super-precision matte > MF with standard matte.
In my opinion, the days of the interchangeable screen are mostly over. This isn't something that's going to come back, folks. I'm not saying I'm okay with that, but it's something we all have to expect will be the trend going forward....Show more →
Using lifeview to focus may be a way to work if your camera is mounted on a tripod and you have all time in the world to catch the shot. For that I would not need a (D)SLR. If you shoot a wedding, an event or anything with moving objects and you are not wishing to trust upon AF only, you have to be able to use the VF. That is one cause (another is to controll DOF) why using a SLR for me.
There are many situations where even if you trust AF changing the focus away from what camera chooses. Therefore any good (not only L) lens offers the opportunity to focus manual while in AF mode. I modern cameras the original focusing screens do not give the shooter any chance to focus manualy. That is why I exchanged my ones in the past. In my 5D II I use a third party crossed split screen FS with 1 stop darker out of center area. For me this works perfect. The cross section helps in general using focus and recompose, the generall darker area enables me to choose and controll focus within the split a second. Split screen is a decades old technologie that imo still should be in any camera and I do not know why it is not. Integrated in the production process it should not cost more than a cup of coffee. Why there is no interchangable screen I do not understand. For me it actually looks like this new 5D III should become Canons second pro line. Maybe the VF and FS are so good, I would not need one. Maybe it is just to prevent people from "doing" it by themselfes not to damage anything. Surely it will be possible to let this exchnage be done by CPS at an extra charge (and loosing warranty?). We will see soon. Before I decide what to think about I would like to view through the 5D III viewfinder first.
Of course. A better focusing screen can be a horror for manufacturers, too because it offers any bad focusing of your gear already in the viewfinder.
p.6 #3 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
Dustin Gent wrote:
uh yeah...
The MP-E 65mm (by the way, one of the sharpest lenses Canon has made) is manual focus only, the TS-E 90mm, Canon TS-E 24mm L, Canon TS-E 45mm, and the TS-E 17mm f/4L. I do believe more than 4 people buy these lenses. You should try manual focusing some time.....
This. All my lenses are manual focus TS-E's and on top of that I use manual focus Zeiss lenses.
For critical focus the manual way using liveview is superior anyway for static objects.
p.6 #4 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
I am worried about this since I shoot wide open with the 85l and 501.2 all the times. Since I bought the 5D Mark II I installed and left the eg-s screen in there and nevr went back to the standard one. I wonder if maybe the screen on the Mark III is better and the eg-s won't be needed...
I bought the precision screen (forgot the name) for my 1DMIV but I never really needed or liked it on that body ( I forgot why) so again amybe the camera ben newer may have a better standard screen....
p.6 #5 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
to use live view to focus you have to keep the body away from you eye, which with low shutter speeds can make a shot blurry, since you losing that extra point if contact that your face has on the camera...
p.6 #6 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
geniousc wrote:
These sound like non Canon items, I don't believe they are sold in the US. The link I sent shows all of the screens for the 5D2. They never did make screens for the 5D2 that coincide with the ones made for the 1 series AFAIK.
The screen I am using as far I remember is a reworked 1D screen by using canon Ec-L type from "focusing screens". So it is "original" from Canon, just cut out to fit into 5D II.
Excellent. Exchanging ist was a job of seconds (minutes for me). But of course because the body was created to "exchange" (screens) there are no warranty issues. I am pretty sure that will change with 5D IIIs fixed one.
p.6 #7 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
pompo wrote:
I am worried about this since I shoot wide open with the 85l and 501.2 all the times. Since I bought the 5D Mark II I installed and left the eg-s screen in there and nevr went back to the standard one. I wonder if maybe the screen on the Mark III is better and the eg-s won't be needed...
See, this is exactly why I am putting out the possibility that the 5D3 might have a better screen than the 5D2, because much of what Canon has upgraded from the 5D2 to the 5D3 will be beneficial to fast prime, low-light photography:
1. The AF system is much improved, with the sensor being equivalent to the 1DX. Many cross-type points, better distribution of points, and better peripheral AF precision to minimize the need to focus-and-recompose.
2. The AF system's precision is optimized for fast lenses, rather than slow ones, with the use of double-cross-type points and many points with f/2.8 sensitivity.
3. Maintaining nearly the same pixel count at 22 MP, instead of going with a high-density sensor means shooting at ultra-fast apertures should be, at the minimum, no worse at oblique angle light loss than the 5D2--i.e., the phenomenon where less light is actually reaching the sensor because the angle of incidence is large for marginal rays at apertures from about f/2 and faster.
For all we know, it's possible that when they upgraded the AF and VF for the 5D3, they might have made the reflex mirror a bit more reflective (e.g., maybe the new AF system doesn't need as much light?), so a more precise screen could be used. Not saying this actually happened, of course. Maybe it won't be as bad as people think. At worst, the screen will be the same as the 5D2, and at best, it could be significantly better. In the worst case scenario, one just gets a custom screen and you deal with the metering issues if applicable.
The 5D3 is going to be a very popular camera. Of that, I have no doubt. Prices will eventually drop. If enough people insist on it, Canon could easily implement a custom function to adjust the metering for a non-standard screen. Obviously, they won't redesign the hardware, but if it really is that important, the firmware could be changed--Canon has done such a thing before. But I suspect that few people will actually need it, despite all the complaining in this thread.
"The EOS 5D Mark III’s focusing screen has about the same overall brightness and depth-of-field characteristics as the EOS 5D Mark II‘s Eg-A standard focusing screen. This is a brighter screen than the Eg-S with most lenses, but it does not depict depth of field accurately for apertures wider than about f/4. Manual focusing accuracy using the optical viewfinder is about the same, lens for lens, on the 5D Mark III as it is on the 5D Mark II with an Eg-A focusing screen."
p.6 #10 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
That means you can not trust manual focus with lenses faster than 4.0 like it was with 5D II. But now we can not choose a different focusing screen any longer?
p.6 #11 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
Say hello to third-party focus screens and inaccurate metering, Ralph! (Actually, I use a KatzEye screen in a D300S and D700 without noticeable metering problems. But I don't use spot metering.)
wickerprints wrote:
For all we know, it's possible that when they upgraded the AF and VF for the 5D3, they might have made the reflex mirror a bit more reflective (e.g., maybe the new AF system doesn't need as much light?), so a more precise screen could be used. Not saying this actually happened, of course. Maybe it won't be as bad as people think.
They didn't do that either, it seems. The Canon UK website specifies a mirror with a 40:60 transmission:reflection ratio for both the 5D Mark II and 5D Mark III.
However, something's been done to the viewfinder, beyond the addition of 100% coverage, because the eyepiece optics are larger than before:
p.6 #12 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
S Dilworth wrote:
Say hello to third-party focus screens and inaccurate metering, Ralph! (Actually, I use a KatzEye screen in a D300S and D700 without noticeable metering problems. But I don't use spot metering.)
I did in my 5D II. But there it was easy to exchange it and in cf you could adjust the difference for metering. I do not know if that will be as easy with 5D III.
But maybe the AF ist so phantastic that I will learn to use it
p.6 #13 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
Ralph that's the point. Without a user replaceable screen there will be no meter shifts in the custom functions.
You will be able at some point get some 3rd party screens from Katz eyes and brightscree like you can for the 7D (probably others as well) but unless the light hitting the meter is exactly the same then there will be a shift.
And you can't just say dial in a bit of compensation as the difference is not linier .
Perhaps the Reikan FoCal software will offer a way to microadjust AF confirm on chipped adapters. I know he was considering adding this feature from his blog. I also wonder if the 5DIII will offer microadjust at both focal length of zooms?
Also I recall Rachel at Katzeye said they didn't think making custom screens for FF cams was worth it given the choice available from Canon and the marginal gains to be had over what was already available. Also it was somewhat cost prohibitive to develop.
Mike
p.6 #15 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
You will be able at some point get some 3rd party screens from Katz eyes and brightscree like you can for the 7D (probably others as well) but unless the light hitting the meter is exactly the same then there will be a shift. And you can't just say dial in a bit of compensation as the difference is not linier .
Katzeye and Brightscreen....That's true, but there is nothing like an OEM screen with a drop down change capability.
IME's aftermarket screens are not a good answer when it requires partial disassembly of the camera to get it in and out only to find out after spending a $100 it's not exactly what you wanted anyway. How easy is the 7D screen to change? Has anyone reading this done it?
p.6 #16 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
wickerprints wrote:
1. The AF system is much improved, with the sensor being equivalent to the 1DX. Many cross-type points, better distribution of points, and better peripheral AF precision to minimize the need to focus-and-recompose.
Is there any word as to whether it will support 'spot focus' mode/option similar to the 7D?
p.6 #18 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
another 3rd party source of screens for 7D, presumably in time, 5DIII versions would be available.
I used several focussing screens on a 1DII, none of which were supported by Canon CF algorithms. Years later when the 5D was introduced, was the first time the Ec-S screen was sold and supported with a CF.
Basically for a split prism focusing screen Canon mentioned the change in exposure. It recommended switching from Evaluative to Center Weighted. Also recommended never using center spot metering, for obvious reasons of darkness to the center split area. I asked around in the forums, but nobody using an f2.8 or faster lens ever had problems with metering with a split prism screen. In an extreme example the split prism would be 1/3 of a stop different than the standard screen. Always the result was within easy chimping range. Of course the slower the lens combination, the large the potential for exposure change. An f8 lens combination would certainly need exposure chimping, but it did AF too. I anticipate that an S style screen in a 5DIII would not be an issue for a fast aperture lens. despite the lack of a Canon CF.
Mike K
p.6 #19 · No interchangeable focusing screens for 5D3
Mike K wrote:
I used several focussing screens on a 1DII, none of which were supported by Canon CF algorithms. Years later when the 5D was introduced, was the first time the Ec-S screen was sold and supported with a CF.
Yes, I get it. Canon's customers before the mid-2000's didn't include many wedding, portrait and landscape photographers, because 35mm film was not good enough and Canon never made a medium format camera. There just wasn't, and, it appears, isn't, the culture to support those kinds of applications.
But they've put EOS out there as a replacement for medium format. They need to provide expected features.
And it wouldn't have killed them to issue a firmware update for the 1D Mk II to allow it to accept the Ec-S. While they're at it, they might allow arbitrary screen profiles (curve + flag for disabling use of the centre spot) to be uploaded via EOS Utility much as Picture Styles currently are. That at least would let third parties sell screens you could meter with.
