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Archive 2012 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera

  
 
skibum5
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


Jeff Nolten wrote:
Oh, and one last one from my spiritual guru Jimmy Buffett:
"You only have two choices, having fun or freaking out!"



he forgot "having fun freaking out"



Feb 09, 2012 at 02:48 PM
RobertLynn
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


Okay, I just think you're beyond help then.

I didn't say it was an end all be all or acceptable in a 3k plus camer system. I use it, just fine, along with 1 series cameras. My word not good enough? What about image master in this very forum who gets spectacular photographs of birds? So you shoot off your mouth, and e shoots difficult subjects with the crippled af system.

I honestly wouldn't think too many people would be upset with the af of a 1d3 provided it was a non bugged one...but wait, it's a how many year old state
...must be dog shit.

Your post about costs makes no sense either. Talking about weak strong yen has about as much merit as me talking about oatmeal and homemade ricotta cheese.

Canon did what they did because they got away with it. Nikon did what they did to gain market share, and try to get people from canon over. I think it's a good plan, because it helps us, the consumer.

Why even bring up 2008 dollars? It's 2012...there's no need to point out what the yen to usd meant the. To now...it only makes it look like "hey Nikon had this for 2000"...when no, they didn't.
Maybe I'll buy a house on the market, but have them adjust it to 1912 money...I could've bought 1000 acres and a mansion for 800 bucks!

Like I said, picking only negative comments out, and acting like anyone with a different opinion is dumb or not respectable is ludicrous.

Many photographers much more capable than us, have said both positive and negative things about every system out there...why do you choose to focus on only negativity?
Why even see movies or listen to music. Just read the reviews. Why test drive a vehicle? Just review it up!



Feb 09, 2012 at 03:26 PM
40Driggs
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


Why are we making this so complicated?

Nikon has been including (basically) the same pro AF system in all of their advanced amateur cameras since the D300. Canon hasn't. Whether or not you are okay with this will depend on your expectations. To me this isn't so much about how good or bad the 7D AF system is. It's whether or not we are cool with Canon choosing to limit their cameras in the autofocus department when the competition doesn't do so.

I own a 7D and really like the AF system. That being said, I don't think I've ever heard a 1D IV user say that the 7D system is better. If the consensus is that the 1D AF system is the best, then Canon would have to include that system in the 7D II and 5D Mark III to directly compete with Nikon using their D4 AF system in the D800 and D400 (if there is one.) What makes things more difficult is that we can no longer using the arguments of the high resolution and video as an excuse anymore.



Feb 09, 2012 at 03:37 PM
okafoja
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


40Driggs wrote:
Why are we making this so complicated?

Nikon has been including (basically) the same pro AF system in all of their advanced amateur cameras since the D300. Canon hasn't. Whether or not you are okay with this will depend on your expectations. To me this isn't so much about how good or bad the 7D AF system is. It's whether or not we are cool with Canon choosing to limit their cameras in the autofocus department when the competition doesn't do so.

I own a 7D and really like the AF system. That being said, I don't think I've ever heard a
...Show more

Well said. This is not about 7D. No more excuses for Canon. This topic shouldn't be too complicated at all but 7D fanboys get upset so easily. I have never seen such a thing.



Feb 09, 2012 at 04:09 PM
jj_glos
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


Who is making excuses for Canon? Nobody I see here works for them and is defending their specification choices for a camera. They research, decide on a spec, market and sell it. Simple as. Nothing is crippled on the 5D2, it was designed to perform the way it is. If that performance isn't for you then don't buy it. If everyone had done this no doubt Canon would've been back to the drawing board a lot sooner than they have. The fact is the camera sold by the bucket load, what incentive is there for Canon to address the AF issue?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see pro spec AF in the 5D2. As I'm a serial user of outer AF points I've gone for a 1Ds2 over the 5D2, in fact I very nearly swapped for a D700. If the 5D3 doesn't have more advanced AF it would be a shocking decision by Canon! I'd assume that a lot of he references to 7D AF in the new 5D3 are more to do with the feature set than a straight use of a crop AF module in a FF camera which wouldn't make a lot of sense?

I'm amused by all the references to the EOS3 AF, I still have one and I found my old 7D AF to be an improvement. Eye control would be good to see again though



Feb 09, 2012 at 04:52 PM
M Vers
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


jj_glos wrote:
Nothing is crippled on the 5D2, it was designed to perform the way it is.


It's this type of mindset that really confuses me. It was designed to function this way? Honestly? What type of company purposely designs something to be unreliable and inaccurate in terms of functionality? Why even give the camera nine points in the first place if eight of them work so poorly? This isn't a $500 camera we're talking about here. This was simply a case of gross product differentiation and either a way to cut R&D costs (Hey, let's save a bunch of money and recycle) or simply a safe bet (as a Canon rep put it). Again, a $2700 camera should perform better than a $500 camera in every single crucial aspect. No excuses.



Feb 09, 2012 at 05:16 PM
jj_glos
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


M Vers wrote:
It's this type of mindset that really confuses me. It was designed to function this way? Honestly? What type of company purposely designs something to be unreliable and inaccurate in terms of functionality? Why even give the camera nine points in the first place if eight of them work so poorly? This isn't a $500 camera we're talking about here. This was simply a case of gross product differentiation and either a way to cut R&D costs (Hey, let's save a bunch of money and recycle) or simply a safe bet (as a Canon rep put it). Again, a
...Show more

Why do you bother asking all the questions? Canon is the type of company that does this and profits from it. That's not speculation or Internet hyperbole, it's happening right now for all to see.



Feb 09, 2012 at 05:24 PM
skibum5
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


jj_glos wrote:
Who is making excuses for Canon? Nobody I see here works for them and is defending their specification choices for a camera. They research, decide on a spec, market and sell it. Simple as. Nothing is crippled on the 5D2, it was designed to perform the way it is. If that performance isn't for you then don't buy it. If everyone had done this no doubt Canon would've been back to the drawing board a lot sooner than they have.


what?



The fact is the camera sold by the bucket load, what incentive is there for Canon to address the AF issue?


the fact that the competition now has MP in spades and top quality video, it had neither before



Feb 09, 2012 at 05:25 PM
eosfun
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


I believe this discussion on AF system in an enthusiast camera being the best or second best type needs some nuancing. Wordings like "crippling" a model "protecting" high end models etc. are not helpful in trying to understand business models and marketing from Canon or their competitors. Marketing and product management are much more complicated than the simplistic portraying of marketeers intentionally trying tofrustrate customers by crippling camera models, stripping features. Marketing is not a client rip off system. Marketing is part of the formula to position a company as strong as possible in the market and make a company profitable. Any company, also Canon, does marketing from a point of view of their own assets and strengths, perceived customer demand, a vision on market development over time and, as a part of that vision on market development, anticipation on what the competition is expected to do. Canon has made some marketing mistakes lately that have their origins in a misperception of market development. Their vision on the pace of innovation was too conservative.

Based on the success of the last decade, Canon management thought their own pace of innovation and marketing recipe was good enough to dominate the SLR and compact market. Their success in the compact market was most important unlike a relatively low profit per unit multiplied by a mass volume. The DLSR market, much smaller (less than 5% of the compact volumes!), was important for brand image and relatively high margins per unit.

Now let’s focus on that SLR market, that’s what this forum is for isn’t it? Repeatedly slightly improved models have been good enough to create “upgraditis” among a loyal customer basis. Some new models have been strong enough to create new markets; 300D and successors: the D-SLR for everyone. Others have been strong enough to penetrate in markets that were closed for Canon until then; 1Ds as the Hasselblad killer. The full frame for everyone market was created by the 5D, a model important enough to drag lots of enthusiasts with hesitations to go digital and leave film behind. These models were ahead of the competition, but not because Canon wanted to be ahead of the competition, but because they had a good vision on the market and they did their proposition in the market right.

Today, there is still a deep misunderstanding in Canon product management on the developments in the market. I think it’s not just Canon that does underestimate the power of the revolution that is going on with iPhones, Ipads, Android devices , and dedicated specialist cameras like: action cams, helmet cameras, RC flying video camera etc. etc. People get used to a lower quality image and are “wowed” by the fact of new creative possibilities to overcome that lower quality. Mind that this was also true in the beginning of digital era, when film photographers rejected digital because it’s quality was not good enough, but an important share of early adaptors did accept some limitations of image quality because of other qualities of digital, like workflow speed or quality control over aspects that were not given in the classic film processing workflow (colour management, photoshop controls etc.) As quality conscious creative photographers here on the board, a lot of us seem to think that the most important next step of photographic innovation is to have 1D like AF in a 5D like camera. As you understand now, I think the market demands more dramatic innovations. Canon should have recognized that, but they were still in the drunkenness of their success when the next imaging revolution was born.

A differentiation in AF performance could be perfectly well acceptable if our D-SLR’s keep up with features from smartphones, tablets, specialist cameras etc. If Canon choses to neglect those developments I predict a dramatic loss of marketshare the next few years. And yes, their “classic” photo enthusiast models deserve the best available technology because that will make them stand out of the crowd as quality leader. That would also be important to keep the quality gap between gadget cameras and smartphones ad big as possible. However, unless Canon introduces some revolutionary new models that anticipate on those market developments where Apple, Samsung and others drive innovations today, the “imaging company” of Kyosei will no longer be the dominating player in the market. That may sound like disappointment to some fanboys, but to me it does not effect my EOSfun at all I still like my 1Ds-es as creative tools. And in the meantime I use my Android Galaxy S2 more often that I would have thought a year ago. My facebook friends appreciate a good photo anyway, wether it’s shot with a DSLR or a phonecam. My business contacts or customers demand sometimes immediate illustrations, or photos with a high scoop factor. Sometimes that is good enough or better than a high res from RAW carefully processed picture from my 1DsmkIII’s. Since Canon has no acceptable solution for that kind of applications I have to deal with my Android phone. In the meantime I do not care about no 1D AF like system on a 5D at all I just wished Canon brought models with better built in communications even if it was just a wireless connection to my phone. Now that would be EOSfun



Feb 09, 2012 at 05:29 PM
jj_glos
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


skibum5 wrote:
what?


the fact that the competition now has MP in spades and top quality video, it had neither before


what what?


"is there" should probably be "was there" if you're going to selectively quote and ignore that I said the 5D3 should have improved AF...



Feb 09, 2012 at 05:31 PM
M Vers
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


jj_glos wrote:
Why do you bother asking all the questions? Canon is the type of company that does this and profits from it. That's not speculation or Internet hyperbole, it's happening right now for all to see.


In the same breath why bother making excuses for them intentionally screwing a lot of their customers by purposely crippling a product? If that's the business model you admire, that's fine--to me it's shystie. A difference in opinion I suppose.



Feb 09, 2012 at 05:32 PM
jj_glos
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


M Vers wrote:
In the same breath why bother making excuses for them intentionally screwing a lot of their customers by purposely crippling a product? If that's the company model you admire, that's fine--to me it's shystie. A difference in opinion I suppose.


I'm not defending them or admiring them, I'm simply stating it as it is. Somewhere at Canon there is a nasty chap who decided that the 5D2 would have the AF performance that it has. Somewhere at Nikon there is a rather nice chap who decided that the D700 would have the AF performance that it has. I know which chap I would buy a beer! (he doesn't work for Canon!)

For some users they undelivered on the 5D2 AF (I've already said I'm one of them) but I can see that they took a business decision which they believe works for them. Who knows, they may have recognised that the 5D2 AF was a massive own goal and have sworn never to repeat such a gaff, I'm not going to bet my house on it though!



Feb 09, 2012 at 05:42 PM
SeverianTL
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


eosfun wrote:
I believe this discussion on AF system in an enthusiast camera being the best or second best type needs some nuancing. Wordings like "crippling" a model "protecting" high end models etc. are not helpful in trying to understand business models and marketing from Canon or their competitors. Marketing and product management are much more complicated than the simplistic portraying of marketeers intentionally trying tofrustrate customers by crippling camera models, stripping features. Marketing is not a client rip off system. Marketing is part of the formula to position a company as strong as possible in the market and make a company
...Show more


+100

Finally some sanity brought to this thread. Thanks EOSfun for the breath of fresh air.




Feb 09, 2012 at 05:46 PM
RobertLynn
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


See that's one of my points.

First and foremost was that the 7D AF is hardly crippled. There's been tons of discussion ad naseum and the vote seems damn close to 50/50 that it's on par with 1d3 and better than 1D2n. While I still think the 7D isn't 1 series, I can certainly see that it's not crippled either.

As for the Nikon d300 being "professional" in its AF...I outshot the D300 consistantly with my 7D, at the same type of events, and each of us using the equiv. major party lenses (Canon/Nikon). whether or not that's my experience vs the other person's, or the camera is up in the air (it did turn out that *not bragging, please don't think that*, that I continually delivered better results than the D300 guy. Could've been a lot of things, lenses, cameras, problems, technique).

Now, secondly, I will not defend Canon. What they did worked, but now they are in a pickle, because Nikon basically went all Honey Badger on Canon, and said, lookie at what I can do.

I swear to you, even though Canon has the better 24-70 and 70-200 (well the 24-70 is up in the air as it's not out yet...), if the D800 was 8FPS with an incredible buffer(even with it's 600 dollar grip), I'd probably buy 2 of them. For what I shoot, 8-10 is what I need. (this is of course if Canon doesn't offer something up).

j99, don't think I'm trying to beat you down or anything, trust me, I want just as badly as anyone, a FEATURE PACKED camera that says to the competition...hey, guess what I just did...yeah...how do you like that. I want Canon to go, hey Nikon done went and bonered us, so we're going to drop the 1DIV X dollars, and the 1DX X dollars as well. Not only that, we're going to release a 5D3, a 3D5, and Rebel against Nikon 3ft or whatever they want to call it, that's same price point or lower, has equal or better features, and you know what, we're going to deliver more to the consumer, that way Nikon can't give us shit anymore.

As it stands now though, I don't know what's going to happen. The new 24-70 is very welcome, but I, like you, want a body that's going to be excellent. I want an AF system (whether it's a refined 7D system (because even though I disagree with you about it being crippled, it would be a shame to see an old, unrefined AF system in a new camera) that nails the shot with high consistancy, and a price that makes it competitive.

I think LARGELY one of the reasons why the 5D2 sold so well was the video crowd.



Feb 09, 2012 at 06:10 PM
skibum5
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


jj_glos wrote:
what what?

"is there" should probably be "was there" if you're going to selectively quote and ignore that I said the 5D3 should have improved AF...


ok well "was there" and "is there" make a big difference though

and merely keeping pace vs. forging way head and grabbing a lot of share are two different things as well

yes I know you said that the 5D3 should have better AF, I didn't quote that part because I didn't disagree with that part




Feb 09, 2012 at 06:10 PM
RobertLynn
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


skibum5 wrote:
ok well "was there" and "is there" make a big difference though

and merely keeping pace vs. forging way head and grabbing a lot of share are two different things as well

yes I know you said that the 5D3 should have better AF, I didn't quote that part because I didn't disagree with that part




I think Canon was "keeping pace", but damn near getting passed by the pace car (did I use that reference right there, because I don't know racing), but Nikon jumped in with their turbo boosters on this round.



Feb 09, 2012 at 06:27 PM
padmasana
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


RobertLynn wrote:
Nikon basically went all Honey Badger on Canon




Great image!
Sorry, can't help myself. Big LSU fan.
Also big 7D fan, but that's not as important ...



Feb 09, 2012 at 06:35 PM
safcraft
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


My popcorn ran out.
Anyone for a refill?



Feb 09, 2012 at 06:39 PM
padmasana
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


safcraft wrote:
My popcorn ran out.
Anyone for a refill?





Feb 09, 2012 at 06:45 PM
Jeff
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · 7d AF vs 1-series AF in a new camera


jamesf99 wrote:
"...And you're right, we have to wait to see what Canon does and who knows, just as they did a last minute price hike on the 1D3, perhaps they'll come out with something better than expected at the last minute this time."


Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I am of the opinion that Canon knew that 1D MkIII's were going to roll back in to repair centers around the world, and it was a relatively painless way to offset the financial misery when they couldn't fix the known AF issues in time with firmware updates.

And, thanks for the response...

-Jeff

PS: My 'whining' analogy wasn't in relation to this thread, but to others who seem to think whining about whining in forum threads will somehow decrease said whining...



Feb 09, 2012 at 06:49 PM
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