Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

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Archive 2012 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Ralph Conway
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p.3 #1 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

skibum5 wrote:
we will see, the rumors sound awfully solid though

Did 102K ISO for D4, too. It turned out after hip and hop to be 12K ...

I do not trust in any rumors except Keith´s one.

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:20 PM

Ralph Conway
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p.3 #2 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

skibum5 wrote:
Ralph Conway wrote:
@ skibum:
The thing is ... lets wait.

Nikon did not come out with a D4 with less AF, less MP, less ISO, less FPS, less price (what they never did before) because they think, less in all fields is ENOUGH. They brought it, because it is what they could offer to make some olympic sales against 1D X (announced in Oktober). One just have to look at the offered body, to see that is a fast shoot back with what they have. They are again and (if they do not come out with something else this year) for the next couple of years the "pro" losers. Does one really belive D3X sold in numbers?

If they really offer a D800 let´s see, what it gives the people. I guess, it is not ISO (6.400), not fps, not IQ. It might be just PIXELS at the end. To answer that it´s putting a hand in a drawer. But we will see.

we will see, the rumors sound awfully solid though

and sure maybe they will make a total disaster with the sensor, although they've had a good track record recently

and 3000 euro is a pretty high price tier (although OTOH since camera exchange rate often is 1 euro = 1 USD

maybe the price is actually not so high)

and sure when it comes to lenses they have no answer to stuff like the 70-300L or even 70-200 f/4 IS so it's not all golden but you do have to admit they try to do what they can with their camera bodies

They have great lenses. :-) But you are right, my favorites are not available on the other side. Or much more expensive. But they have great 50mm´s Canon should copy!

Edited on Feb 04, 2012 at 06:28 PM · View previous versions

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:24 PM

Mark2Mark
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p.3 #3 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

So after years of Nikon fanbois telling us that clean high ISO is the best attribute that a camera can have and they "don't want 21MP because of the file sizes", Nikon shoots themselves in the foot and it's Canon's fail?

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:25 PM

Glenn NK
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p.3 #4 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Thanks Dan (gdanmitchell), that's my laugh for the day.

OTOH, I'd better take my crappy Canon gear down to the camera shop, and put it up for consignment sale (no point in keeping failures).

Glenn

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:25 PM

Glenn NK
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p.3 #5 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Stoffer wrote:
While 36 MP may sound like a lot, keep in mind that the rumored resolution of 7360 x 4912 pixels on a full frame translate into a pixel size of 4,9 micron. A Nikon D7000 has a pixel size of 4,8 micron and the 24 MP sensor in NEX-7 is at 3,9 micron.

I think that it is fair to assume that the rumored sensor will be a Sony design, so it should at least be able to rival the per pixel performance of the sensor used in the NEX-7. And it looks pretty decent to me:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonynex7/page27.asp

I would personally prefer the resolution/noise ratio of the D1 X / D4, but if you're shooting in a studio @ ISO 100 with all the light in the world, it looks mighty tempting.

I'm less convinced about a huge resolution advantage in situations where you don't perfect control over both quality of light, focus and the subject being absolutely still.

Quoting directly from dpreview on the NEX-7:

RAW mode reveals the 24MP sensor’s real potential. A lot of fine detail is captured in the image files, and the NEX-7 joins the SLT-A665 and A77 as arguably the best performing APS-C camera to date in this respect. Even at ISO 100 though, there’s visible noise in dark areas of the scene; by ISO 800, noise becomes visible in almost all areas of plain tone, and increases rapidly as you go higher on the ISO scale. Fine detail rendering suffers at ISO 1600 and noise starts getting distinctly problematic at ISO 3200, with distinctly high levels of chroma noise.

Glenn

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:40 PM

netexpress
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p.3 #6 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Beni wrote:
Funny that the non AA version costs more, Nikon actually make a saving of about that just by not putting it in, they'll be laughing all the way to the bank!

Smaller production runs are much more expensive than larger production runs. I assume that Nikon is betting there will be much smaller demand for the model without the AA filter and thus plans to produce them in smaller runs. Thus they may expect the cost to be higher on the model without the AA filter.

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:43 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #7 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

skibum5 wrote:
one might say that he does it as much and to greater degree than anyone here though since no Canon body has ever done a single thing less than 100% optimally and every lens is without any flaw (I dare you to so much as mention that the Canon 85 1.8 is super sharp and has quick AF and is great but also has a lot more PF than at least one other lens in the history of lens design and see what happens....)

Yes. You are completely right. I'm biased to a "greater degree than anyone here" towards Canon. No doubt about it. ;-)

And, whatever you said about - what was it? the 85mm f/1.8? - I'm sure that is true, too.

Or not.

Dan

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:45 PM

Dan Zinc
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p.3 #8 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Canonists & Nikonists I like informations for both side, shooting 1Ds2 & 1D I am stil in balance. Let it be.

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:50 PM

netexpress
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p.3 #9 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

>>>Richard Nye wrote:
>>>A 36mp sensor would seriously challenge the current lens performance.

That's where Leica R and Zeiss ZF and C/Y glass comes in to play. Select lenses of each of these groups can easily out-resolve the 1Ds III or D3x sensors. For example the Leica 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit-R Type 3 (latest) E55 ROM lens is the sharpest 35mm SLR wide angle lens ever made. Or take a stab at the Leica 100mm f/2.8 APO Maco R ROM model.

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:50 PM

galenapass
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p.3 #10 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

I am not sure the OP meant to incite people on this forum. Though the choice of words was poor, the OP is French and that may be more the explanation.

For landscape shooter the D800 has to be a real interesting option. For the Canon landscape shooter, then it is clear the next 5D type model will have to compete with Nikon's offering - which offers some hope. One would also hope that Canon will be forced into improving the crippled AF performance of the outer 5D focus points.

As for me, I am always one or 2 generations of camera behind. I refuse to pay these high prices and will enjoy my current models until the prices of today's new cameras are more justifiable. My 1DIII and 5DII will be more than enough for a few years. If I need a lot of mega pixels in my landscapes, then stitching will have to be the route for awhile.

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:54 PM

Ralph Conway
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p.3 #11 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Glenn NK wrote:
Stoffer wrote:
While 36 MP may sound like a lot, keep in mind that the rumored resolution of 7360 x 4912 pixels on a full frame translate into a pixel size of 4,9 micron. A Nikon D7000 has a pixel size of 4,8 micron and the 24 MP sensor in NEX-7 is at 3,9 micron.

I think that it is fair to assume that the rumored sensor will be a Sony design, so it should at least be able to rival the per pixel performance of the sensor used in the NEX-7. And it looks pretty decent to me:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonynex7/page27.asp

I would personally prefer the resolution/noise ratio of the D1 X / D4, but if you're shooting in a studio @ ISO 100 with all the light in the world, it looks mighty tempting.

I'm less convinced about a huge resolution advantage in situations where you don't perfect control over both quality of light, focus and the subject being absolutely still.

Quoting directly from dpreview on the NEX-7:

RAW mode reveals the 24MP sensor’s real potential. A lot of fine detail is captured in the image files, and the NEX-7 joins the SLT-A665 and A77 as arguably the best performing APS-C camera to date in this respect. Even at ISO 100 though, there’s visible noise in dark areas of the scene; by ISO 800, noise becomes visible in almost all areas of plain tone, and increases rapidly as you go higher on the ISO scale. Fine detail rendering suffers at ISO 1600 and noise starts getting distinctly problematic at ISO 3200, with distinctly high levels of chroma noise.

Glenn

The point is:
ISO 100 was a necessity in analog film times, because even ISO 400 offers grain far bejond todays DSLRs ISO 3.200 does. The resolution of todays cameras is far far bejond what Film ever was able to give you. It was overcome at 6 MP and ISO 400 in 2002.
Todays standard in consumer cameras of 16-18MP usable at ISO 1600 after just 10 years (of digital SLR) is more then 60 years of analog photography was able to give us in 35mm. That is just the truth!

Do not lie to yourself. Watch a H&M poster at the busstop. Printing quality is less then 70 DPI. Any cell phone today gives you that resolution.

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:54 PM

Ralph Conway
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p.3 #12 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

netexpress wrote:
Beni wrote:
Funny that the non AA version costs more, Nikon actually make a saving of about that just by not putting it in, they'll be laughing all the way to the bank!

Smaller production runs are much more expensive than larger production runs. I assume that Nikon is betting there will be much smaller demand for the model without the AA filter and thus plans to produce them in smaller runs. Thus they may expect the cost to be higher on the model without the AA filter.

Yes. But Its just a fingertip in the computer to let out this production step. Is it really worth 300-500 $?

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:58 PM

Mike K
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p.3 #13 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Richard Nye wrote:
A 36mp sensor would seriously challenge the current lens performance.

The current 18 mp APS-C sensors of Canon have a much higher pixel density. ie 18 X 1.6 X 1.6 = 46 mp. So if quality FF lenses can currently serve existing crop bodies, they should handle FF 36 mp fine.

Feb 04, 2012 at 06:59 PM

jcolwell
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p.3 #14 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Richard Nye wrote:
A 36mp sensor would seriously challenge the current lens performance.

Did you ever wonder why Canon is making Mark II versions of many of its very best lenses?

Feb 04, 2012 at 07:09 PM

skibum5
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p.3 #15 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Ralph Conway wrote:
Glenn NK wrote:
Stoffer wrote:
While 36 MP may sound like a lot, keep in mind that the rumored resolution of 7360 x 4912 pixels on a full frame translate into a pixel size of 4,9 micron. A Nikon D7000 has a pixel size of 4,8 micron and the 24 MP sensor in NEX-7 is at 3,9 micron.

I think that it is fair to assume that the rumored sensor will be a Sony design, so it should at least be able to rival the per pixel performance of the sensor used in the NEX-7. And it looks pretty decent to me:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonynex7/page27.asp

I would personally prefer the resolution/noise ratio of the D1 X / D4, but if you're shooting in a studio @ ISO 100 with all the light in the world, it looks mighty tempting.

I'm less convinced about a huge resolution advantage in situations where you don't perfect control over both quality of light, focus and the subject being absolutely still.

Quoting directly from dpreview on the NEX-7:

RAW mode reveals the 24MP sensor’s real potential. A lot of fine detail is captured in the image files, and the NEX-7 joins the SLT-A665 and A77 as arguably the best performing APS-C camera to date in this respect. Even at ISO 100 though, there’s visible noise in dark areas of the scene; by ISO 800, noise becomes visible in almost all areas of plain tone, and increases rapidly as you go higher on the ISO scale. Fine detail rendering suffers at ISO 1600 and noise starts getting distinctly problematic at ISO 3200, with distinctly high levels of chroma noise.

Glenn

The point is:
ISO 100 was a necessity in analog film times, because even ISO 400 offers grain far bejond todays DSLRs ISO 3.200 does. The resolution of todays cameras is far far bejond what Film ever was able to give you. It was overcome at 6 MP and ISO 400 in 2002.
Todays standard in consumer cameras of 16-18MP usable at ISO 1600 after just 10 years (of digital SLR) is more then 60 years of analog photography was able to give us in 35mm. That is just the truth!

Do not lie to yourself. Watch a H&M poster at the busstop. Printing quality is less then 70 DPI. Any cell phone today gives you that resolution.

I don't think 6MP outdid the best color film sharpness, so not the rebel 300 but the 1Ds2 was the one that finally beat 35mm color film for detail.

Feb 04, 2012 at 07:11 PM

jcolwell
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p.3 #16 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Mike K wrote:
Richard Nye wrote:
A 36mp sensor would seriously challenge the current lens performance.

The current 18 mp APS-C sensors of Canon have a much higher pixel density.

Not really. My math shows the 18MPx APS-C sensor has a pixel density of 232 pixels-per-mm (ppmm). A 36 MPx full frame sensor (36mm x 24 mm) would have a pixel density of 209 ppmm. That's not quite as high as the APS-C sensor, but it's pretty close (11%). I suspect that a 209 ppmm FF sensor will show a lot more lens warts (larts) in the corner of a FF image than a 232 ppmm APS-C sensor will show in the corner of an APS-C image. YMMV.

Feb 04, 2012 at 07:19 PM

bobbytan
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p.3 #17 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Freaking awesome specs ... especially "no AA filter" option ... if this is true.

Not that I am a Canon fanboy (not at all) but I will stay with Canon (for their lenses) and I am looking forward to the announcement of the 5DX ... 5D III ... or whatever.

KiboOst wrote:

D800, 3000€
24x36 36mp
100% viewfinder
metering and AF from D4 (Expeed 3)
4fps / 6fps w grip
100 - 6.400 ISO (50 - 24.800 ISO in L/H)
1080p30 24 25, hdmi direct ouput
official annoucment february 7, available in march

Will be a version without AA filter for 300/500€ more

Feb 04, 2012 at 07:21 PM

Ralph Conway
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p.3 #18 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

netexpress wrote:
>>>Richard Nye wrote:
>>>A 36mp sensor would seriously challenge the current lens performance.

That's where Leica R and Zeiss ZF and C/Y glass comes in to play. Select lenses of each of these groups can easily out-resolve the 1Ds III or D3x sensors. For example the Leica 28mm f/2.8 Elmarit-R Type 3 (latest) E55 ROM lens is the sharpest 35mm SLR wide angle lens ever made. Or take a stab at the Leica 100mm f/2.8 APO Maco R ROM model.

You are talking about lenses about even Leica germany does not know or tell us anything about on their website ... 28 F 2.8 or that even loose against 70-200 2.8 L in tests and are not offered by anybody (Leica 100mm f/2.8 APO Maco R ) ...

Feb 04, 2012 at 07:25 PM

chez
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p.3 #19 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

skibum5 wrote:
jamesf99 wrote:
KiboOst wrote:
Hi,
The D800 is 'official' from french magazine Chasseurs d'images (they are very reliable and wouldn't publish this for the sake of rumor. they had the infos from themselves and some contacts, not from Nikon so they don't feel to respect anything regarding official annoucement) :
http://www.chassimages.com/forum/index.php/topic,146552.0.html

D800, 3000€
24x36 36mp
100% viewfinder
metering and AF from D4 (Expeed 3)
4fps / 6fps w grip
100 - 6.400 ISO (50 - 24.800 ISO in L/H)
1080p30 24 25, hdmi direct ouput
official annoucment february 7, available in march

Will be a version without AA filter for 300/500€ more

Let's see next Canon annoucements ...

If I remember correctly, you're right; the magazine does have a pretty good track record with real specs. It sounds like a landscape/portrait shooters dream camera in many ways, and - assuming it's real - if the IQ holds up Nikon will have a lot of takers..

and with the grip, the 6fps make it passable for action too, 6fps is a HUGE difference from the 3.9fps of the 5D2 and a big step from even 5fps. So it has tons of detail for the studio people, the landscape people who want a ton of detail, it has a lot of reach for wildlife and sports, apparently Nikon's best metering and AF effort and can get up to a usable, if not yet ideal, fps for action.

Supposedly they have also radically upped video quality.

I wonder if it uses the column ADC and will have the far better than what Canon has done so far low ISO DR too.

The first true, all-rounder and in a nice small form factor too.

Hopefully the Canon will be similar....
it sort of needs to be, unless they simply decide to compete on price alone and way undercut the price.

Thing is Canon could've already been here long before Nikon if marketing had allowed it.

Yep, blame marketing for everything...engineering can do no wrong...not even the 1d3 misfocus debacle. That was all marketings fault.

If engineering had it's way all the time, they would blow their entire load all at once and have nothing new for the future. Product strategy is key to product success, and that is were good marketing comes to play. The Dumbed down 5d2 was a HUGE success for Canon even though we arm chair quarterbacks like to poke holes in it.

Feb 04, 2012 at 07:28 PM

chez
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p.3 #20 · Thanks Nikon, Canon may fail big

Ralph Conway wrote:
netexpress wrote:
Beni wrote:
Funny that the non AA version costs more, Nikon actually make a saving of about that just by not putting it in, they'll be laughing all the way to the bank!

Smaller production runs are much more expensive than larger production runs. I assume that Nikon is betting there will be much smaller demand for the model without the AA filter and thus plans to produce them in smaller runs. Thus they may expect the cost to be higher on the model without the AA filter.

Yes. But Its just a fingertip in the computer to let out this production step. Is it really worth 300-500 $?

Worth is a personal decision. For some yes, for others no. Are the new super teles from Canon worth twice as the old ones...you decide.

Feb 04, 2012 at 07:37 PM

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