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Archive 2012 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1

  
 
Kit Laughlin
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p.1 #1 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Like many here, I have been thinking about these three cameras, and have the Fuji on order (with the 35/1.4 and the M-mount).

In the meantime, I have a GXR, with the M mount and the A12 50 macro modules, and the EVF. I have been using the CV 12 and 15 WA lenses for interiors, and been very happy with the results. As well, in the M mount I have the ZM 25/2.8, the CV 35/1.7, a CV 50/1.5 on the way, and a CV 75/2.5. I have bought these in anticipation of trying them all on the NEX 7 and the new Fuji.

Major considerations are no AA filter (GXR and Fuji), and some way to be able to view compositions from above (GXR and NEX 7). The pixel count is not so important; 12MP is enough for my work IF there's no blur filter. Ease of use in the field is an equal-priority with these two considerations.

My surprise is in how much I am liking the GXR, and I started this thread to talk about some of the design aspects of the three cameras that affect my work.

First, and this was unexpected, the tilt-up EVF has been excellent for the interiors I shoot, because it allows the camera to be put right into any corner. Anyone who's shot interiors will know what I mean here: DSLRs do not allow this. Now, in practise, this might not be a big deal, but being able to compose accurately with either 4:3 or 3:2 format in landscape mode has speeded up my work on a tripod considerably. Having a simple 2" timer available is very handy, too. That's one benefit.

Another is being able to hard-save all settings, and have these available on the mode dial.

Now, thinking about the two other cameras, the NEX 7 has a tilt LCD; this would allow the same placement and composition opportunities as the GXR. But what prompted me to cancel the order I had in the system was the reports of colour shading (not a big problem) and the detail smearing at the edges—that is a big problem in architecture. The GXR with the 12/5.6 is sharp to the edges.

Now, a member on a sister site has posted on his experiences using the CV 12/5.6 on the NEX 7, and he has not had any major problems, apparently; see here, but see his comments following.

The camera that ticks some boxes (the Fuji) is as-yet untried with M-mount lenses (will it have the same edge/colour shift problems?) and has neither a tilt-up EVF nor a fold-out LCD, as far as I know, so will not be able to do the kind of tight interiors I am doing presently.

Anyhow, these are initial thoughts—what do others think?



Feb 02, 2012 at 08:26 PM
douglasf13
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p.1 #2 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Hi, Kit. I don't own any of these cameras, but here are the reasons why I'm sticking with the humble 5N for my M lenses:

Compared to GXR:
The 5N has a better EVF, tilt LCD and the ability to use the Hawks close focusing adapter. Now that I've had a chance to review RAWs of the 15/4.5 on the GXR and 5N, the corner resolution difference is subtle when sharpening is optimized, so the above reasons push the 5N over the edge, for me.

Compared to the XPro1:
There are still a lot of questions with this camera, but the OVF will be mostly useless for my M lenses, the EVF isn't as good as the Sony, and the Fuji is big and expensive. The Sony EVF is a major trump card, IMO.

Compared to the NEX-7: As much as I like the 5N's tilt EVF and touchscreen for magnification, I'd probably be willing to sacrifice those for the NEX-7...if the NEX-7 didn't struggle with rangefinder lenses.



Feb 02, 2012 at 10:15 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #3 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Kit, the CV12 is less of a problem child on the M9 than the CV15 is... so I'm not surprised that it's also reasonable on the NEX-7. I think it will be the CV15 and ZM21 f/4.5 that will pose the most issues with corner colour shift. I agree with Doug, I think the CV15 was stellar on the NEX-5N and I'd be hard pressed to see much of a gain from it on the GXR, especially considering the resolution drop. It's an interesting lens. I pretty much gave up on it with the M9 but it has been such a pleasant surprise on the 5N and GXR.

I agree the tilt EVF is useful. I definitely use that feature. What I don't like though is that it ties up the hotshoe. For some of the work I do I need to trigger radio-slaved strobes and the GXR won't allow this with the EVF, which I want to use, unless I rig something with an optical slave taped to the built-in flash. The 7 and the Fuji will leave the hotshoe clear for my radio. At the least, Ricoh could have included a PC connection. But that too is missing from the M9.

Edited on Feb 02, 2012 at 11:44 PM · View previous versions



Feb 02, 2012 at 11:39 PM
philber
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p.1 #4 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


As for me, I shoot my 5N from the waist with the screen swiveled up 90% of the time, except when I have it on tripod, when I swivel up "only" 50% of the time. That is so good that it alone "almost" nixes any mirrorless that doesn't have it. I have a NEX 7 waiting for me to return fro a trip, and I already know the solution to my WA needs. Either the ZM 18 works as nicely as it does on my 5N, or I will get a Leica R 19mm. As it is a SLR lens, there will be no problem, and IQ stopped down is a delight. Or I will keep my 5N as well for WA and ow light and hhave two bodies. But the iQ that I have seen fromt he 7, admittedly only on the Intgernet, so it is only a teaser AFAIAC, makes me drool. What could change my mind is the availability of AF lenses on the Fuji, if they are really top class, since the Zeiss for NEX, sadly, is not to my liking.


Feb 02, 2012 at 11:44 PM
douglasf13
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p.1 #5 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


The shots that I've seen with the likes of the ZM 35/2 on the NEX-7 have convinced not to order the camera a second time. If the corners have that much issue with the ZM 35/2 on the NEX-7, I can't imagine what wider lenses with a shorter exit pupil will do on that camera.


Feb 03, 2012 at 12:33 AM
kosmoskatten
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p.1 #6 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


I ran both the 5N and the GXR M, same as Douglas. I went the other way and kept the GXR M.

Both are fine cameras but I prefer the handling and end results of the GXR. Some of the
features of the NEX5N I would have loved on the GXR, namely the EVF and articulated LCD.
Since I primarily shoot wide angle glass that extra little attention to the sensor on the GXR won me over too.

Still, I like both cameras almost equally well. The GXR is better laid out I think. The more I use it, the more I like it.

I also think the NEX7 is not what I hoped it would be.

The Fuji X Pro 1 (which I have a keen eye on too) has the _potential pitfall_ of not being tweaked to accommodate wide legacy glass. There is no mention anywhere in Fuji's literature provided that the X Pro 1 does well with wide angle glass, has offset micro lenses and evidence points to the contrary: the new Fuji 18/2 (equiv of roughly 28) is designed for the sensor - and not the other way around. Something to consider if you have wide angle legacy glass. Also, the optical viewfinder of the X Pro 1 will be pretty pointless with longer glass.

As a stand alone small system I think the Fuji camera will be excellent, though expensive, and quite large for an APS-C camera. Lenses seem to be fine, though the 18/2 seems to rely on on board processing for distortion and CA control.

$1700 with one lens, whichever, would be ok-ish. $1700 for body alone? Too much for a camera that seems a pain with MF lenses, has no peaking and has an optical finder that it pretty useless with longer glass and quite inaccurate with their own lenses.

I hope I am wrong, but it kind of seems like the NEX7 all over again; looks great on paper, but in reality might prove another expensive "almost there" camera.

The GXR M mount has a small advantage in that it is designed for legacy M glass and compatible lenses and the camera menu is supporting that. The GXR M is not perfect, but all other cameras so far are more of a compromise.





Feb 03, 2012 at 12:51 AM
Planetwide
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p.1 #7 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Phillipe,

The Leica 16-18-21mm is very good on my 5n, it is essentially flawless at 16mm F/8. I am having very good luck with the VC12mm as well. The two give me an 18mm, 24mm, 27mm, and 30mm equivalents that are super sharp when stopped down.

The Contax G 35-80mm is also exceptional!

I will be able to post samples very soon.

Andrew




Feb 03, 2012 at 04:36 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #8 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


I ordered an X-Pro 1 and three XF lenses on 9 Jan. Well, I ordered two lenses then and added an XF 18/2 early this week. The planned XF 14/2.8 R lens will probably do for my wide angle needs, so I don't think I'll use any non-XF lenses in the normal to very-wide focal lengths. I hope to use some of my medium and longer Alt telephotos, like the CZ Planar 85/1.4 C/Y, SMCP-M 135/3.5 and SP 300/5.6.

I'm gravitating towards two systems: (i) 1D-series bodies with big honking EF lenses for many situations; and, (ii) Fujifilm X-Pro 1 + X100 (or two X-Pro 1) with small XF and Alt lenses for situations where discretion and/or light weight are of high value.



Feb 03, 2012 at 06:25 AM
kosmoskatten
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p.1 #9 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Well, that's odd. If I were to use any type of alt lens on the X Pro 1 it would be wide angle lenses, hoping that the sensor would be able to accommodate them without corner smear and color cast.

With your telephoto lenses you will probably suffer from:
a) not having peaking
b) not being able to use to optical viewfinder (unless you dial in every lens you use, every time you use it and if you think a very small rangefinder frameline will suffice)
c) focusing on a non articulated LCD only, so you will have to gingerly hold those telephoto lenses in a fashion where you have the least support from your body.

Out of the existing alt platforms I can hardly think of any camera that is less suitable for alt lenses of say... ...35mm focal length and up.

I honestly think you might be better off sticking to the X Pro 1 with the dedicated lenses as your separate system and keep your dSLR's for the big honkers and the alt telephoto glass. But, do give it a try and report back to us. I am keen to find out how it goes.



Feb 03, 2012 at 09:40 AM
douglasf13
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p.1 #10 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Not having an AA filter should go a long way in rangefinder wide performance, so my guess is that the XPro1 will be ok with these lenses, but we'll see.


Feb 03, 2012 at 11:06 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.1 #11 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


More generally speaking, when I look at these three cameras and others coming out (like the Pentax K-01) I see a pattern as to what interests me:

A) Open, as opposed to closed

Cameras that are more open simply by virtue of having a short back focal length has meant that often we can adapt other lenses and that idea remains interesting to me. At this point in time I am not keen to buy heavily into any maker's system because it seems too early to entrust that much confidence in one maker of bodies and lenses.

Adapting M mount or other lenses so far has been useful in providing lens portability which has allowed me to be more free to explore different cameras. I hope this becomes a trend over time.

B) Support my lenses well

Early on rather naively I expected any good lens to perform equally well on camera A, B, or C. Over the past several months we've learned a lot about how cameras with short back focal length may not treat all lenses well, especially rangefinder glass, depending on the sensor arrangement. This is a new must-have on the feature check list and definitely for me will slow down adoption of new camera bodies until samples from trustworthy sources show how such lenses fare.

Since my lenses are all manual focus, support also means provide adequate means to achieve reliable focus as rapidly as possible which at this point in time means providing focus peaking/assist and magnification, ideally both.

C) Flexibility in viewfinder arrangement

I did not expect to be a big fan of optional, tiltable, EVFs but thanks to the EVFs on both my NEX and GXR I've come to appreciate the flexibility they offer. Any camera that threatens to displace my GXR that doesn't offer a tilt EVF will have to offer something else in return such as a tilt rear LCD. A tilting viewfinder of either sort is simply so useful that I don't know if I would ever buy another camera that doesn't have one or the other type or both.

I think the ideal camera for me may still be a body with an internal EVF and a tilt rear live view panel. This was my thinking when I placed a pre-order for the NEX-7 early fall 2011, as I was looking for a DSLR replacement and for me the one thing some other cameras can't do that I ask of my DSLR is support hot shoe mounted flash or cabled off camera flash or flash triggers and call me old fashioned but unless working from a tripod, when I have a flash on top of the camera I really want to pull the camera up to my face for focus and support.

Of the three cameras up for discussion, from least attractive to most:

XPro 1: A(1), B(1?), C(-2) - Fujifilm announced a M mount adapter would ship this year, and on paper the camera should perform well with rangefinder glass of all types, but proof is in the pudding. Maybe the camera will in the end out perform in the first two dimensions, but at present how it works with rangefinder glass just isn't known. The viewfinder arrangement in this camera seems the least flexible of all; I'd probably give it only a -1 if Fujifilm had updated the EVF in the hybrid finder.

NEX-7: A(2), B(-2), C(2) - I'm giving the NEX-7 a big downgrade in "support my lenses" because my Zeiss Biogons are not treated very well by the camera's sensor arrangement, but there are of course plenty of lenses that will do well on that camera. If I were to change around my lens selection this would be a camera to consider. Very open, but not open to symmetrical wide angle rangefinder glass. Could be a DSLR replacement though, with the right glass on it.

GXR: A(1), B(2), C(1) - not as open as the NEX but supports M mount lenses exceedingly well and offers a tilt EVF. If one is keen on the optional lensor modules you might rank it higher still as it is a very versatile system.

And what doesn't exist but I wish did:

GXR-II with M Mount-II (Built-in high quality OLED EVF, tilt rear LCD, less display lag, improved buffering, minor ergo tweaks; M Mount-II - 16 megapixel or thereabouts, no AA filter - an evolutionary upgrade): A(1), B(2), C(2)

Incidentally, I'd worried that Pentax would come out with a mirrorless compact to challenge the GXR but the Pentax K-01 seems to be a big fail, at least when compared with my ABC hot button items being considered. With no EVF apparently available, fixed K mount meaning adapting other lenses is out, it comes up as negative, negative, negative: A(-1), B(-1), C(-2).

I think the camera was designed with the Pentax faithful in mind, where NEX and GXR and even Fujifilm's cameras to some degree have been aimed at drawing in users from other camera communities.

Hopefully the Pentax K-01 being so Pentax centric means GXR will continue to be developed around modularity and openness.



Feb 03, 2012 at 11:18 AM
artur5
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p.1 #12 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Like other people here I've been considering that question for a couple of months. Thailand flood delays' have been an unforeseen chance. I was very much for the NEX-7 when it was announced.
I didn't had much faith in Fuji's X Pro body. That hybrid viewfinder is good only for their AF lenses. No adapters, for the time being, for most manual mounts, Pricing and bulk of the camera aren't my cup of tea either.
The troubles of the N7 with RF wides, took me to the N5N path, but the lack of hotshoe was the main issue. Needing sometimes bounced flash, I use a METZ 36CT2 mounted on a bracket. That combo has worked for me with Canon DSLRs or a Leica M8.
I tried my NEX-5 + NEX miniflash + optical slave triggering the Metz flash.
Yes, with the right model of optical slave, it's possible to synchronize the main flash correctly, but all the same I ended up with harsh shadows, red eyes and people blinking, because it's impossible to disable the NEX preflash. So, that issue was a break dealer for the N5N.

Then I considered the Ricoh. Thanks to the excellent thread 'still no love for the Ricoh GXR', the pros and cons of the system seem pretty clear. I agree with Douglas, in spite of the excellent performance with M lenses, no tilt LCD, no Hawks adapter and mediocre EVF are weak points. I'd add slow processing, somehow dated (if still very good) 12 Mp sensor; no way to find the camera/module in a walk-in shop or even a reliable online European dealer ( AFAIK); and no way to use Contax G lenses, unless you pay an absurd price for converting them to M.

Some days ago I solved the flash matter. Nothing easier than building a sort of 90º reflective hood for the NEX flash, which bounces the light sideways, so the optical slave can see it, but blocking absolutely the light of the NEX flash to fall into the subject. I tried that and it works, You can't avoid the delay caused by the preflash so it's not like having a hot shoe, but it works.

If there were known upgrade plans for the Ricoh system, probably I'd waited, but for the moment only a zoom M16 module is on the way. No M Mount A16 module, no EVF or camera upgrade.
I ordered the NEX-5N last night...



Feb 03, 2012 at 11:30 AM
kosmoskatten
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p.1 #13 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


Artur5: the NEX5n is a fine camera, I am sure it will serve you well. But, did you miss the news (I would not call it rumors, as it is from a Ricoh source during an interview) about the GXR body being updated with an articulated LCD to boot? I don't question your choice, the NEX5n was my runner up.

My boat ain't rocking and I am sitting steady with the GXR. I have fairly good Ricoh sources of my own though I haven't talked to them lately. It seems the info on the A16 M mount has gone hush hush as no one seems to know when and if, but even the Ricoh sources say it is bound to happen, but timing has been off with the floodings (which has affected not just the modules) and the zoom release so for now, nobody knows when or even if.

The GXR II talk makes perfect sense, regardless of whether the M mount will turn into an A16 I think Ricoh are very well aware that an articulated LCD and an improved EVF will help sell the GXR system, and the M mount. And quite possibly a new kit is brewing with the APS-C Zoom and a GXR II. Since CP+ is just around the corner I am sure we can dig out a little more info on what is up and what isn't.




Feb 03, 2012 at 11:52 AM
michaelwatkins
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p.1 #14 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


It'd be nice if Ricoh paired the availability announcement of the zoom lensor with a new GXR product announcement or road map or some such thing.

Straw poll: GXR-II - would you favour:

$349-ish cost as GXR (low barrier to entry), optional improved external EVF for $200 - 300?

$649-ish cost for GXR-II including built in EVF?

GXR-II with a built-in EVF might make the system appear more costly and harder to sell, although the Fujifilm XPro 1 does tend to squash that line of thinking, doesn't it...



Feb 03, 2012 at 12:27 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.1 #15 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


I am not too sure... ...hmm.
I think I would prefer an external EVF. I'd rather have a cheap GXR II with an optional EVF. Hopefully the EVF would be backwards compatible with the GXR.

But... ...if the built in EVF was Sony quality I prrrrrolly would consider it, if it had an articulated LCD.

I think I will let Ricoh decide this one and see what they come out with.



Feb 03, 2012 at 12:35 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #16 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


kosmoskatten wrote:
Some of the
features of the NEX5N I would have loved on the GXR, namely the EVF and articulated LCD.


Although not a choice in the OP, this is why I chose the G3 which is much cheaper than the GXR, basically same IQ, and about the same size. I would have gotten the GXR if I did not like shooting from the EVF. I don't mind that the G3 body is bland compared to the GF, GX series - I take pictures with it!



Feb 03, 2012 at 12:42 PM
Mr Joe
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p.1 #17 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


I've been mulling over getting one these cameras and this thread has been really helpful.


Feb 03, 2012 at 02:01 PM
kosmoskatten
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p.1 #18 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


dgdg: I had a brief stint with 4/3 but I could not come to terms with the smaller sensor format and native crop. APS-C is a bit of a stretch for me, it is a bit of a step down from being a full frame shooter. With 4/3 MFT I find the crop factor too limiting for alt glass.

APS-C has matured enough to be a viable option in itself though I am somewhat invested in M compatible lenses in the hope of a full frame camera somewhere further down the line.

A full frame camera that appeals to me, that is.

Mr Joe:
There are a few good options out there at the moment, depending on your shooting style and lens preference.



Feb 03, 2012 at 02:14 PM
uscmatt99
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p.1 #19 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


michaelwatkins wrote:
It'd be nice if Ricoh paired the availability announcement of the zoom lensor with a new GXR product announcement or road map or some such thing.

Straw poll: GXR-II - would you favour:

$349-ish cost as GXR (low barrier to entry), optional improved external EVF for $200 - 300?

$649-ish cost for GXR-II including built in EVF?

GXR-II with a built-in EVF might make the system appear more costly and harder to sell, although the Fujifilm XPro 1 does tend to squash that line of thinking, doesn't it...


I picked up a GXR soon after kosmoskatten started the GXR thread. I had to suffer it out with the garbage S10 until an M-mount module came out, but at least got to know the interface before I was too committed. A friend of mine has a pretty extensive collection of Leica M glass and was an early adopter of the GXR as well. I don't have any M-glass, but that's the direction I'm heading. I've been using my F-mount glass (mostly the CV 20/40/90 and a 28/2.0 AI) via an adapter, and finally purchased a ZM 25/2.8 to pair with it.

Handling and IQ were the driving factors, and this camera is built like a mini-D700, and handles almost as well. I'm glad that others have been able to flesh out the positive and negative aspects of this system, as well as which lenses play nicely with the sensor. Thanks forum

To answer the question above, I would prefer a more expensive body with an incorporated EVF. Ideally, it would be great if the EVF was flush on the left upper corner of the body and could tilt up like the current external EVF. Paired with a tilt or articulated LCD, I'd be in heaven. Since we already have a small form factor in the current body, I wouldn't mind if the version II enlarged a bit. It's small enough for me, and a little bigger grip and more real estate on the back for buttons is always welcome. Alternatively, a bigger LCD with some optional touch controls (but please keep the current buttons!) would be fine as well.



Feb 03, 2012 at 03:04 PM
ken.vs.ryu
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p.1 #20 · GXR vs. NEX 7 Vs. Fuji XPro1


love the one you're with.


Feb 03, 2012 at 03:08 PM
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