I'm not going to complain about this, but rather share the stark reality and then issue a challenge to my fellow FM photogs.
My wife and I decided recently that it was time to stop the corporate career and go into photography full-time. We're moving from here in MA back to our house in the NW suburbs of Chicago as part of the deal. In the 6-8 weeks before the move, I'm simply getting ready as a photographer, re-branding my website as I'll focus more on weddings and senior portraits now, and building my portfolio.
I've reached out to a couple photogs here on FM about being a second shooter for free. No response. I went to a couple small wedding shows in the area. One photographer at one show was nice and said he wished he knew of me recently when his usual second got sick. At another show, a guy complained that he used to shoot 50-55 weddings a year, but now would be lucky to do 20 because "everybody's got a camera." He was selling a $1795 wedding package with a show special rate of $1595. He reminded me of that guy who posted a thread here complaining about losing a free wedding to a photographer with no experience.
No one was really interested in taking me on as a second. That's really frustrating, when I'm trying to do this the right way.
And that's why schmucks like me, who are determined and driven to be a wedding photographer, will go to Craigslist and make those crazy deals. Right now, I don't care about the money. I want the experience, and I need to build my portfolio.
I didn't just get my camera for Christmas. I'm fully equipped, and I've been shooting dance photography for years, the past couple years for the Houston Ballet. I've been published in Dance Magazine. As for weddings, I'm experienced there, too. In 2001-04, I was one of the top wedding videographers in Phoenix. Started the same way, and within a year was one of the highest paid wedding videographers in the valley.
So here's my challenge, FMers! This spring and summer, you need a second, I'll come to you on my dime. You already have your second? How thrilled would your B&G be if you provided a third shooter for free! I'm easy-going, and will put down my camera whenever needed to assist with any shot in any way. I'll go anywhere in the NE and Midwest, and probably would go anywhere else as well. How cool would it be if in a few years, you could say you helped me get started! I'll be sure to thank you at the WPPI Awards Presentation.
Sorry for the long post. I hope I didn't break too many rules about posting this. I know the last thing we need is everyone posting on here how they want to be a second shooter. But let's see how this goes.
I get about 3 offers to second shoot per week. In fact I get more offers to second shoot than inquiries. About the only thing I get more of than second shoot requests are peeps trolling to sell me SEO services.
I totally understand your frustration.
I don't know what the "right" answer is, but even your offer is probably deleterious to the industry. There are peeps who like to second shoot and either make a living doing so or supplement their income by doing so, by being reliable seconds that shoot for a few photographers as needed. I know a few. All the people who offer to second shoot for free hurt those people.
People should be paid. It's a good thing. Besides, it creates the QUID required to then expect the PRO QUO.
Ron, I can echo your statements about second shooting almost to the Tee. I as well am trying to increase my portfolio and gain some experience to shoot weddings and am not having much luck picking up jobs either. I too am willing to shoot for free, and I too would gladly be a third instead of a second. I have my own gear, and own insurance.
So, like you I am trolling Craigslist to try and pick something up. Unfortunately it seems I will have to come out of the box shooting primary. Such is life.
I get about 3 offers to second shoot per week. In fact I get more offers to second shoot than inquiries. About the only thing I get more of than second shoot requests are peeps trolling to sell me SEO services.
I totally understand your frustration.
I don't know what the "right" answer is, but even your offer is probably deleterious to the industry. There are peeps who like to second shoot and either make a living doing so or supplement their income by doing so, by being reliable seconds that shoot for a few photographers as needed. I know a few. All the people who offer to second shoot for free hurt those people.
People should be paid. It's a good thing. Besides, it creates the QUID required to then expect the PRO QUO.
Ciao!
Alessandro...Show more →
I hear ya, Alessandra, but I think my offer is deleterious only if I don't have the talent to move up. I'm not surprised that you're contacted by so many people wanting to be a second shooter, and what can you do with them all? You can't accept them. I know that. Maybe every now and then when someone outstanding comes along, you can try them here or there. But then, what good is it to you when this person clearly wants to branch out on his own.
deepbluejh wrote:
I won't be able to help you directly, but I can provide some insight.
For me, I almost never take on second shooters who randomly contact me. Why?
- They usually aren't that good.
- I already have a regular second shooter.
- I'm not crazy about the idea of training my competition.
Others' reasons might be similar, so this is just something to think about.
Well, Jamie, I totally understand. But since I won't be your local competition, and I am decent, feel free to invite me down to Atlanta to be a third sometime.
Like I said, I know I'm up against a brick wall on this thing. I think part of my frustration also stems from reading posts on this forum, or similar forums, saying if you want to do wedding photography, you HAVE to be a second before you go out on your own. And yet, it's a thousand times easier to just get hired as the primary for less than $1k than it is to be a second for free, or $200 or whatever.
Even at my level (i make no secret about how new I am on this forum) I get several inquiries about being my 2nd shooter. I was in the same situation as you are right now. I pretty much did 3 super low budget weddings before I was able to score a 2nd shooting gig.
In reality is, if you second (or third) shoot for someone, the more photos they have to cull so that is more work for the 1st shooter. Most of the time it is more of a hassle to have a brand new 2nd shooter who hasnt done wedding before.
SGallant wrote:
Ron, I can echo your statements about second shooting almost to the Tee. I as well am trying to increase my portfolio and gain some experience to shoot weddings and am not having much luck picking up jobs either. I too am willing to shoot for free, and I too would gladly be a third instead of a second. I have my own gear, and own insurance.
So, like you I am trolling Craigslist to try and pick something up. Unfortunately it seems I will have to come out of the box shooting primary. Such is life.
Cheers,
Sean
Well, Sean, you're not too far from me, where I am right now. Let's do a pact, you get a wedding, I'll come be your second. I get a wedding this spring in MA, you can come be my second, okay?
The whole second shooter philosophy (in the sense of gaining experience and building a portfolio) just doesn't make sense to me. As TTR has said, "You aren’t gradually awesome, awesome happens suddenly." I think that applies here.
A wedding is absolutely no place to "gain experience" (i.e. make mistakes). IMO, it's just too important to risk letting a second or third or whatever mess up on my dime, brand, and reputation.
Gain experience by shooting portrait sessions, sports, and family events where so much isn't on the line.
I can understand how frustrated you must be. You seem to have the determination and your goal set...just seems like you are looking for an opportunity.
My advice isnt going to help you RIGHT NOW, but here is how I entered wedding photography. I feel like I established myself over the years on the FM People Forum. I mainly posted personal images of my own family, but I also posted images from the family lifestyle/portraiture sessions I was doing. I feel like they were pretty good and I feel like my style lent itself well to the wedding world.
I started to hang out in the Wedding Forum a bit and got to know some of the people. Some of them were familiar with my family work on the People Forum. Pat Furey needed a second shooter and we had already talked offline. He asked me, I ended up shooting. I then posted the work here. I got pretty good feedback as well as some nice crits. Shortly after that, Evan Baines called me to second shoot with him (he was shooting a wedding in Philadelphia). Again, we had already 'known' each other. I shot it, posted the set, got good feedback. From there, I worked with Sergio Mottola, Evan again, and Steve Saldana. Steve was the only guy that I did not have a prior relationship with. Although we clicked (personality and stylistically), I feel that Steve hired me based on my portfolio.
From there, I established my own studio for a year. Then I joined Tony Hoffer as his associate photographer.
But my portfolio could not have been possible had I not established a social relationship with the other photographers. I think they trusted my work, but more importantly, I think they trusted ME.
I know there are many ways to skin a cat, but this is just how I did it...and it worked. In short, post some work, comment on other people's work, hang out, etc.
The whole 'second shooter gain experience' thing seems to be dead despite the advice often dished out, it's simply easier to book and roll on your own.
Mark_L wrote:
The whole 'second shooter gain experience' thing seems to be dead despite the advice often dished out, it's simply easier to book and roll on your own.
I agree 100%. Not to be offensive, but your post seems a bit too desperate.
Mark_L wrote:
The whole 'second shooter gain experience' thing seems to be dead despite the advice often dished out, it's simply easier to book and roll on your own.
i dont agree with this. if i knew someone...as a person...who was adept with a camera...i'd hire them to second shoot.
Ron, you absolutely have a deal. MA is only a few hours away, and my family is from there. So I could easily use it as an excuse to vist them as well. Funny thing is, if I book something you just fixed my next problem, which is finding a second shooter.
Cheers!
Sean
SGallant wrote:
Ron, I can echo your statements about second shooting almost to the Tee. I as well am trying to increase my portfolio and gain some experience to shoot weddings and am not having much luck picking up jobs either. I too am willing to shoot for free, and I too would gladly be a third instead of a second. I have my own gear, and own insurance.
So, like you I am trolling Craigslist to try and pick something up. Unfortunately it seems I will have to come out of the box shooting primary. Such is life.
Cheers,
Sean
Well, Sean, you're not too far from me, where I am right now. Let's do a pact, you get a wedding, I'll come be your second. I get a wedding this spring in MA, you can come be my second, okay?
No Offense Chuck, but does the industry need more people "who are adept with a camera"? It seems that second shooting has just become a way for folks who are "adept" with a camera", yet have no business skills, or money to start a business, to become a "professional photographer". I know many many seconds do go on to own their own business, but I'd wager just as many do not.
I personally do not use a second photographer, and have not suffered from it (OK maybe my back suffered).
I have attended too many wedding (I'm not saying that ANY OF YOU DO THIS), where the primary and secondary are huddled up chatting. And for extended periods. Even if there isn't anything going on, it gives the impression of loafing while on the job.
To the OP, I had exactly the same experience as you. PMed a couple of people here and generally get no response. I was even very nice about it and still no response. I did get a maybe 2 or 3 responses here so far in the past 2 years and I have kept those people on file as I feel they respect my time even in their busy day and even if they didn't want me at all. I do not take anything personally but I think that someday if I ever needed a second and advertise on here - I would probably respond to all who PM me about it even just to say, sorry I have filled the position and just to thank them for the offer and their time.
Anyway enough of that. I have one suggestion for you: I would not go out and offer my services for free. If I was a primary, that sends a bad sign to me because essentially, there is no incentive for me to care about your output, nor for you to care about helping me out - after all it is free. I think a better approach would be to use your downtime and shoot portraiture. Shoot photos of family, friends, whatever. Shoot them in good light, in bad light, in crappy situations, anything. See if you can make anything out of any willing model. If you do this for a while, you will eventually get a portfolio. It may not be a wedding portfolio but that does not matter. What matters is if you can build a strong portfolio of portraits and show them to whoever is willing to listen and give you a slice of their time, you will have a high chance of getting hired as a second.
I have also found that if you go out and network, like join a local photo club or just a bunch of people who get together for photography (photowalks, whatever, etc.), you'll have a high chance of meeting somebody who may eventually be able to help you out.
I also did the CL thing, but I didn't offer my services for free. What got me hired was my portfolio and my open-minded attitude. And then from there, I was able to accumulate and build more of my portfolio to such a point now where I do not care much about it anymore.
You want business in your new area. Do the SEO thing I have been talking about. It works mind blowingly well.
As far as second shooting just keep trying. When I first started (back in college like... '05) I one day decided I wanted to pursue my love of photography at a higher level so I picked up a phone book and literally just started calling people. I called A LOT of people before I found the studio that I ended up working for. When I talked to them I basically told them all I wanted to do was clean the shop and learn whatever they wanted to tell me. My office work turned into proofing and that turned into shooting with them about a year after I started.
I am not saying you should offer to clean someones bathrooms but I am saying have patience along with your hard work finding someone to shoot with.
I get the same feeling when my inquiries and bookings drop off for periods of time. The "Oh crap business is drying up what the HELL are we going to do....". I just keep chugging along working hard and eventually things pick back up. The highs and lows of owning your own small business.
Also for second shooting you need to look far and wide which is good that you are doing so. FM is kind of a microcosm in sorts. Keep looking beyond and try to find people in your own market.
Also it is nice you are offering your services for free to gain experience but you have to understand that a lot of people here are wanting 2nds who are as good as they are. This means amazing.
We have not seen much of your work...well at least I do not remember or recognize it, so like Chuck said before, post up only the baller work you have and after a while you will be "proven" so to speak. Then you become desirable as a second.
I look at it like this:
Second shooters are an investment for your business. You want a good return on your investments even if you did not put much money into that investment.
Shooter A: Cheap investment ... pictures are so so compared to what you are used to having.
Shooter B: Larger investment ... pictures are as good if not better than yours.
To me B is the better investment in the long run because you are getting amazing returns from it (thrilled clients, cohesive blog sets, etc.) That stuff leads to more business in the long run.
So take that for what it is. Basically if you can prove your worth you are more likely to be called on as a second shooter...and get paid for it. You will be able to find second shooter work that is unpaid but it will most likely be at weddings you want NO part of for whatever reason.
I happened to run into this today and thought of your thread here, Ron. They're trying to sell a book but you still might find this article interesting:
I understand your frustration. I wanted to enter this business as a second shooter as well, to gain experience with weddings before tackling one on my own. I wasn't having any luck finding people to let me shoot with them, so I said "fu*k it" and started advertising on Craigslist. I shot my first wedding and charged the couple $500. Same with the second wedding. Then I upped my rates and shot the next few weddings for $900, then $1100 then $1500. I shot 20 weddings my first year in business with most of the clients coming from CL. This was back in 2009.
I don't advertise on CL anymore and my average bookings are around $2800 now, but it was a great way to get my feet wet and build my portfolio.
